How do I tell if a person is deceptive, lying, or just plain bad?
I have been duped and deceived by people for years. It's hard to tell when someone is a bad person, so I have been hurt.
Yet, almost all people I have met are really good people.
How do I tell the difference?
Eileen
My blog: http://www.EileenParker.com
Eileen's blankets ARE incredible! (Again, off topic, but I want to shout it to the world)
I know what you mean, Eileen. I've been taken advantage of by people. I wish I could say that my discernment has gotten much better over the years, but it hasn't. Maybe it's a function of some of the social deficits I have, but I have prepared myself for the possibility that I may never be good at telling early on who's a good person or who's bad person. The only way I know how to figure it out is to wait and watch. I don't get in too deep too quickly with people anymore. If they start wanting big favors from me before we've really been friends for very long, I consider that a red flag. I like to ask them a small favor first and see how they react. People who would like for you to help them paint their house for a pizza and some pop, but won't give you a ride somewhere they're going anyway are probably not your friends. Time always bears these things out. I look for someone who genuinely listens to me, isn't embarrassed to introduce me to their other friends, and is interested in give-and-take.
Yeah, I'm still looking
...
Yeah, I know what you both mean ... I tend to genuinely like nearly everyone. I guess I'm a bit like an eager puppy that way. Fortunately, most of the time, people are basically just fine. The ones I have trouble spotting are the ones who tend to go psycho or toxic on me at some point, but then again, it might be hard for a lot of people to detect them. The toxic people in my life had a tendency to be quite charismatic at first, even helpful and positive (in terms of saying kind things). They tend to have a pattern of attracting people to them and then freak each one out one by one by one. But because they tend to attract a fair number of people, consistently, I guess they always have the company they seek in one way or other. So perhaps it works out for them.
As I said, I'm hardly an expert. Warning signs in retrospect might include:
1) I would draw them out about their lives, and they would share some version of their lives that tended to put them consistently in the driver's seat. I'd say that for them to be genuinely vulnerable and to admit having made mistakes and to not having all the answers was pretty hard, if not impossible. So while in the beginning I'd say there was more reciprocity than later on, there would be some hints of an imbalance, of a rushing away from my expressing an opinion in favor of their taking back the podium, so to speak.
2) Because I am pretty good at taking criticism (when it is fair and positive), I tend to let myself be vulnerable and admit to having made mistakes and to wanting feedback about certain things. These friends tended to become almost school marmish with me, sharing what worked for them, insisting that I use the products they liked or talk to the specialists they use, etc.
3) Over time, I noticed a kind of closing in. These people would seem irritated and judgmental if I chose to take some of their advice but not the rest of it. And I'd notice that they might begin criticizing the alternate routes I might have chosen instead.
It would begin subtly at first, mixed with a fair amount of praise, some of which made me a bit uncomfortable. One woman told me I was an "intellectual giant" and that I have a "genius IQ." Well, while it's flattering to hear, I hardly think that is something friends say to one another (why? and I'm fairly sure she knows I'm no genius), and I saw a red flag warning me that she was working too hard. I felt she was buttering me up, and wondered why.
So I'd say the tendency to over-praise or to give false praise might be a red flag to watch for fairly early on.
4) I noticed over time that these people's increasingly evident challenges with being vulnerable are tied to very low self-esteem. When one has to be in the driver's seat and can't be wrong and can't be seen as fallible, that person can tend to be very perfectionistic about how they are coming across and by extension perfectionistic in their expectations for their friends. So this sort of hyper-criticism comes out that can become extremely tiresome, and really quite emotionally abusive if one sticks around too long. With the one friend I mentioned above, I noticed that eventually I wasn't smart anymore but was instead "flakey" and "clumsy" and "clueless" and "in need of guidance."
5) On the spiral down, these friends tended to begin spouting off about other friends slighting them, gossiping about other mutual friends in a catty way, nagging about why a phone call wasn't returned or perhaps even comparing me to other friends -- a huge red flag.
The general tone of conversations becomes increasingly negative. And personally, I begin to dread contact and put off returning calls, and hearing myself saying things like "You know, I respect you, and what you just said didn't sound very respectful of me. Please don't talk to me like that." By this point, conversations are almost entirely one-sided, with the toxic person spouting endless criticisms and the other mainly in self-protective retreat.
Finally, 6) something will happen that will knock everything lose. Often it is me saying, "Look, this is getting weird. I'm done." Or they lose it and really let me see the pulsing insecurity that is at the root of their insane behavior, and rather than to be vulnerable about it and acknowledge it, it's easier for them to end the friendship. And sometimes, the way these people end friendships is very messy, and needlessly vindictive and cruel.
I am not speaking of individuals who are normal, likable people who aren't good matches for a friendship. I am really speaking of people who are very unhealthy and about whom other people will tend to agree about much that I've said.
And I agree with what you said, Jacoby, about being careful about when people ask more from us than we get in return when we request assistance. I made a very stupid mistake and lent a friend money, something I've never done before. She never once offered to pay it back, and I doubt she ever will. My asking her about it results in a litany of the long line ahead of me of people she would repay long before she gets to me. Now I honestly do not believe she will pay anyone back. Her friends exist to be safety nets, and she runs through them. If it's not money, it's my husband's truck, or some other thing. Finally, I just had to say no.
Karen, you know the one thing I struggle with, quite honestly, is that I suspect something diagnosable must be at the root of the toxic person's difficulties. I am hardly perfect myself and although not cruel or vindictive certainly often not easy to love. Might someone warn others off from a friendship with someone like me -- as being too much work?
In regular friendships with NTs, and I do have several NT friends, I find I really have to work hard not to burden my friends and to remind myself they have their own lives to attend to. In my concern not to burden them, I sometimes err too much on the other side, in terms of not reaching out enough when I am hurting or in need of support. Actually, my habit is to retreat and lick my wounds, because that feels more responsible and more comfortable somehow. And even when I'm doing well, I tend to need more down time between visits than my NT friends appear to need. So I am often conscious of an imbalance. Should I be concerned about this?
I worry that if I focus too much on my own struggles that I will come across as a toxic person, rather than as someone who talks a lot -- and admittedly, given free rein, I do. I do very much need to watch this.
Califmom, thank you for your wonderful post - these are great tips and advice about things to look out for, for anyone - regardless of spectrum status. Runawayspacedog - the wait and see approach is a good one - it's true that many "toxic" people don't show their true selves right away.
As for wondering if someone might warn others about friendships with people on the spectrum being too much work - sure, it could happen - but that's true of lots of people. What I mean is, there are many people, regardless of spectrum status, who others may find "too much work." Most of us (and by "us" I mean humans) have at least one person in our
lives who sometimes or at all times need more attention, help, care, comfort and/or take extra energy to be around. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, it happens for a
variety of reasons. Sometimes we have more than one, and maybe sometimes we are that person, to others. Everyone has an individual mix of things going on - spouses/partners,
kids, parents, extended family, friends, jobs, school, activities, etc and each person has their own tolerance level for how much energy they have at any given time to devote to
all of these aspects of our lives.
All people need to figure out for themselves, as best they can, what balance to strike in terms of energy output. It's not always easy and doesn't always work. As you said, you - and I've heard a lot of other people on the spectrum say this - need more downtime after social visits and social activities. If you are close enough to the people you are friends with to share this, it can go a long way toward being clear about your needs.
I don't think that friendships necessarily require everyone to have the same balance and, I don't think it's possible anyway. The best thing to do is to try to communicate as best you can what does and does not work for you, and in return, to ask the same of your friends if they are not forthcoming with that information on their own. If you are concerned about this, check it out with them - hopefully they will be honest and up front in their response. Keep in mind that, as I've said before, NT's often have an auto-response that is polite or designed to make someone feel better or at ease but isn't necessarily honest. I think the closer of a friendship you have with someone, which of course takes time and effort on both parts, the more you are likely to get a heartfelt and truthful response, even if it is one that is hard to hear.
In my opinion, since there is only so much emotional energy one has to spare - it's good to be careful to try not to dwell too much on what others "may" do or "might" think versus what they are actually saying or doing. Of course it is natural to wonder what others think of us - but if you find yourself always wondering or being concerned about what one or more particular people in your life are thinking, you may want to take a closer look at the quality of that or those friendships. It can be a sign of a toxic person or of someone you may not want to expend too much energy on, if the things they are saying are doing are leading you to feel insecure. For example, I used to have a friend who was very adept at subtly putting me down - so subtly that it took me quite some time to understand why I often felt bad or confused after an interaction with her.
I get that it can be more comfortable to retreat when you are down - many NTs do this too but I know that it can be especially helpful and important for those on the spectrum to do so - again, it comes down to balance. Maybe you can retreat some when you need to but also try to reach out when your energy is more restored and let your friends know what's been going on. Or you could do something pre-emptive such as letting your friends know that if they haven't heard from you in awhile, not to take it personally, or if you want this, ask them to give you a call or send and email checking in. The more information you can give ahead of time - and again, it may take a long time to build up enough trust with someone to do this - the closer you and your friend may feel to each other because you have revealed something and shared something that is more deep and meaningful to you.
-- Karen
Hey, Califmom, I totally get what you mean about receiving school marmish treatment from others. I'm pretty open to hearing people's ideas, too, even about me, and this openness seems to invite that kind of thing. In my case, the sort of people who do it are actually nice people (which makes the whole good person/ bad person question very confusing). After a while, the unsolicited advice feels oppressive to me, but by that time, I've let it go on for so long, the habit has become entrenched in them- it's simply the way they relate to me- and when I bring it up, the relationship soon ends. Well-intentioned people seem to take me on as a kind of project. They butter me up, as you described, then they begin to make suggestions. At first, the relationship goes smoothly. They think I'm smart, interesting, funny, etc.., but eventually, the honeymoon ends when I don't want to take tons of fish oil, or meet their guru, or whatever. Sometimes, I have tried their suggestions, but because I persist in being the way I am (autistic), they just don't stick around. Come to think of it, maybe those people aren't so nice, after all. I'm a person, not a fixer-upper. I always thought they meant well, but maybe they were getting something else out of it, like a feeling of superiority? I don't know. What I do know is that I want to feel respected, just like anyone else. I want someone to like me for me, without feeling the need to change me. Failing that, and maybe anyway, I'd rather just hang out with my dog.
Karen, I really appreciate what you said about people on and off the spectrum being equally able to be too much work as friends. I was accused of being high-maintenance by a friend- of course, he seemed to want to jump in and solve every moment of confusion I had (which, believe me, is a lot of work)- but it was, nonetheless, how he felt. Generally though, I'm the one who feels overwhelmed by the other person's needs and wants. I need so much downtime, most friends just give up on me. It's a good idea, as you said, to discuss these differences with the friend. The way that conversation goes could help you get a read on how nice they are (or at least, how compatible the two of you are)- but only if they're honest.
Then there's always the time thing...
Hey, Jacoby. Dogs are great and in some ways much easier than people. I agree with you there. The school marmish thing I guess is a matter of degrees. Friends in general want to be helpful to one another, which is fine, as long as it goes both ways!
Recently, my brother decided to give me some advice. So I gave him some back. He was surprised. I didn't find fault with his advice, other than I wasn't sure I could really accommodate it. At least not in the manner he proposed. My brother considered the advice I gave him (it was lovingly intended, nothing mean) and apologized to me. He essentially said, "Man, I came across as a real know it all, and that must be very irritating. I deserved that. Touche."
We did cyber hugs and made up. See, I know with him that I can give as well as take. If that is okay, I can have a good relationship with someone. I also need very much to know that if I make a mistake or unintentionally offend someone, that he or she will let me know, so that I can make amends. I need to know that I can seek clarification from a loved one if I feel offended, because sometimes that just comes from not catching a joke or sarcasm.
Where I think the school marm thing gets toxic is when someone simply can't take as well as give. The woman who said I was smart and then decided I needed guidance -- specifically her guidance in all things -- wouldn't hear any advice or feedback from me. Well, not a lot, in any event. I wasn't there for that, apparently.
If traffic flows both ways, so to speak, I think friendships can last. It might flow differently, with abilities that differ or complement. But I think it's also really important to accept that some friendships have certain boundaries.
For example, my book club friends. We loved one another through the context of discussing the books we read. If we tried to make our friendships about more than that, they didn't really work out, unless we had other interests; one of these women became a writing buddy, because she also wrote fiction, so that was fun. Doesn't mean I didn't love them or respect them or that they didn't love or respect me. It was about books, and as long as we remembered that we were fine.
Similarly with my parent friends. We get together on the subject of our children's autism, sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, but united in our love and affection for our children. But if I expect those friendships to be about books, then I'm in real trouble. These friendships are about parenthood first and foremost.
For a long time, I got in trouble expecting I would "make bosom buddies" through exploring common interests. Sometimes that happens, but a lot of the time, the friendships are about the activity, and that's okay. When I pushed the friendships farther than the limits of what we had in common, often the results weren't kind.
I'm grateful to my therapist for helping me understand what should probably have been obvious to me from the get-go!
Karen, thank you for your insight. Yeah, I tend to think too much and worry too much and need very much to stop doing that. I think it comes from falling down a lot socially, especially as a child and young woman. Communicating carefully what I need and then asking what others need is not a strong area for me, at least not consistently. I need to be better at this!
Califmom - I just have to say, this is not a strong area for anyone! We are just not brought up as people - NT, people on the spectrum, anyone - to communicate clearly what we need, especially in terms of such esoteric things as emotions and energy. It's a skill we all need to be better at, and I think learning from one another is a great way to do it.
Jacoby - I love "I'm not a fixer-upper." I agree, you absolutely do not need to be fixed!
-- Karen
Wow, I just joined this forum and already I'm finding things people say that I can so relate to. When you said, Runawayspacedog, that you are a person not a fixer-upper--that really hit home with me. I have run into so many people like that, who I think just want to be friends with me, and later start saying things like "I want to help you". I want to say, "When did I ask for your help, and for that matter, what makes you think I need help?" Why people can't just like and respect a person and see that person as being on their level, rather than some kind of project, is beyond me; but when you said maybe it gives them a feeling of superiority, that clicked! If a person just wants friends who they can feel superior to, then that's not the kind of friend for me!
I guess it's high time I found a group of people (at least somewhat) like myself; I haven't had much contact with other autistic adults, first because I didn't know any (no internet back then), and later because I believed I could live and work in a world of NTs and be considered "normal"...obviously that hasn't always been the case, as I talked about above. So many people tend to be either judgmental .... "You'll never be able to work anywhere, the way you act" or condescending .... "You should see someone (translation: a shrink, because you obviously have mental probelms since you don't fit our cookie-cutter mold of a "normal" person.)
I used to feel bad when people turned out to be that way, but now that I'm a little older I realize that I don't need these kind of people; either they accept me as I am or leave me alone. The more I've come to accept myself for who I am, the more I find there are plenty of good people in the world who look at someone and see who they really are, even if the real person is sometimes hard to find on the surface.
Welcome to the forum, AutieLady, I really like what you said about self-acceptance and finding others who are able to look deeper. Love the cat profile picture too!
- K
Thank you, thank you for the good advice. I didn't know anyone has responded to the thread because my email didn't tell me, so I apologize for responding so late.
Thank you for the kind comment about my blankets. It's always nice to know when someone likes them.
I'll check out the thread you suggested.
Some of my getting taken advantage of has been pretty severe. I have been hurt pretty badly emotionally and physically. That was a long time ago, but it has left me nervous and not trusting. I still get bullied by the occasional adult, as one person is doing now.
Fortunately, my friends and husband are kind and accepting. Others, not so much.
Eileen.
Hi Cozy Calm - some things that have already been posted in the forum may be helpful. If you look at the "NT Family" topic in the Ask a NT forum, Post #9 and higher, as well as the "Art of Manipulation" thread, these may be helpful to you. I'm so happy to hear that the majority of the time, the outcome has been positive for you. Like some of the previous posts have stated, I believe a lot has to do with trusting your gut and if you have other people you have in your life that you trust, talk to them and see what they think. Let them know what, if anything, seems off to you and see what feedback you get. Please tell me if those other posts and threads do not answer or address your question and we'll go from there!
By the way and off-topic, those blankets look incredible - I checked out your website
- Karen