Issues of Maturity - your opinions
I am bothered by the stereotype that people with Asperger's are immature compared to NTs. Yes, I have no doubt that some people with Asperger's are immature; just as some neuro typicals are immature. Actually, I am not certain how many adults out there are mature (meaning, they can attest to making significant headway on the sort of characteristics listed below).
I suppose there are many measures, but I found this essay interesting: http://drgeraldstein.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/signs-of-maturity-what-does-it-mean-to-grow-up/
This is a summary of the key points/characteristics noted by the author:
Humility (understanding how small we are in the scheme of things)
Confidence & capacity for self assertion
Know that most problems are transitory (don't sweat the small stuff)
Not being Mr. Spock imperturbably logical or come apart at the smallest disappointment or frustration
Attend to emotions
Use good judgment
Learn from experience
Forge ahead in spite of fear
"Balance of head and heart, work and play, action and contemplation, passion and repose."
Self reflection and interest in growth
Ability and willingness to be flexible
Ability to laugh at one's self and not at the expense of others
"Take risks and do things that might be hard or embarrassing or scary or frustrating until you master them."
"To be independent in thought and deed."
"The capacity for intimacy and love, knowing all the while that embracing others makes you vulnerable to loss."
Know how to pick your battles ("Know when to hold, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, know when to run.")
Accepting the world on it's terms--handling loss and disappointment so as to allow the unguardedness necessary for love.
Responsibility taking (admitting mistakes).
Honesty.
Having empathy for others ("There but the grace of God go I.")
Accepting and liking oneself; avoid self denigration.
Living a principled life (walking your talk).
Appreciation/graditude
I can confidently say nobody is either completely mature or completely immature. Different people have different strengths (they may be able to take blame, for example) and different weaknesses (they may not be very flexible, for example). Just because someone is missing a handful of things on the list doesn't mean they're seen as completely immature. Often, they'll be described by a fellow NT as "Humble, but they can't just let go."
When people say "Aspies are immature", they're working off a stereotype - the half-knowledge people have of people on the spectrum that's taken completely out of context. People know those who have ASD/Asperger can't interpret social cues (or have a lot of difficulty doing so), so they think "Oh, they wouldn't know if they're doing something wrong," which leads to "Oh, they wouldn't know what's appropriate or what's not," which in turn turns into "They're carefree, and don't have any inhibitions."
It's not so much that the NTs can't see the traits they have in common with Aspies (maybe an Aspie and an NT have equal trouble taking blame, for example) as that they haven't been taught how to see these things. I'm an extremely analytical person, so if I'm asked to describe myself I can give a very in-depth description of all aspects of myself. Because of that, I've managed to see several Aspie traits I have, but I'm far too perceptive of other people to be an Aspie. When I talk to an Aspie who's carefree, I can say, "Well, it's either that they're carefree because they're an Aspie, or because of their personality - either because they were born that way, or because of the way they were raised." If I can see a similarity in their childhood between them and an NT, I can say, "Okay, it's probably not their Asperger's that's making them carefree"; I can think the same thing if I see one Aspie who's carefree and one who's reserved. The problem is, not enough people (Aspies and NTs alike) have been taught to think like this.
It's not necessarily their fault. The human brain takes short cuts - to examine everything in great detail would take far too long when often split-second decisions are needed. That's why stereotypes exist in the first place and why all of us, in at least some way, work off of them, if only at first. I think if more people meet and interact with Aspies, they won't think that way any more. After all, meeting and interacting with black people stopped people thinking they were stupid - interacting with Aspies should stop people thinking they're immature.
I agree... and with the fact that the human brain is a sense making machine, one that takes short cuts. Short cuts... some of us Aspie's to varying degrees don't make or don't make some of them in great number.
I actually need to clarify my concern about NTs making assumptions.
I'm not too concerned about people making assumptions (sometimes I make them, but not often... I often don't "get it" enough to make an assumption usually... though I am much better at making educated guesses when watching two people interacting versus interactions involving myself).
What I am concerned about are the number of people who make an assumption and don't check things out. That to me seems like a cardinal rule, but then again, constant checking out can be annoying. I make assumptions sometimes, and in my defense, my assumptions are usually things like, "I think the person needs space," and then I take what I think is good action without checking things out. (Having checked things out a lot because I can't tell what's really going on has made many an NT crazy and so I assume good and allow NTs to own their own shit and speak to me if need be.)
The rub is when someone makes a negative assumption. I've met far too many people who make negative assumptions about people they like... only to decide they don't like them based on an assumption that they don't bother to check out with the person. I think that is crazy making and unnecessary drama.
Yeah, I can be crazy making too when I step back to give someone room when stepping back is not needed, causing someone else to think I'm probably upset with them... but hey, check that out before becoming defensive or worse nursing it into a resentment.
LOL!
I was reminded yesterday of an interaction between my ex (the one who left me for being disabled with CFS). She was crying and I said the phrase "crocodile tears," and she became highly offended. I thought crocodile tears were important, big tears, well, because crocodiles are pretty heartless and big creatures and so if they cry, the tear would be big and very meaningful. Turns out it means fake tears. My ex couldn't believe that at 52 (at the time), as smart as I am, that I could not possibly know the meaning of that phrase.
This happened with other phrases in our relationship and it was so weird to be thought a liar or crazy or a purposeful crazy maker.
I'm laughing now because in retrospect, those tears of hers were probably crocodile tears (fake or at least overly dramatic for a planned effect... my ex later told me that she "tells people what she thinks they want to hear") and that might have explained the intensity of her reaction to me.
I'm hoping that people I get to know in the future, who will know about the Asperger's, will actually get it when I say, "I didn't know," "That was not my understanding."
I think people don't always fail to follow up on assumptions because of spite, but because, like you, they can't seem to understand some things. They misinterpret what Aspies do because they can't see things from an Aspie's point of view. They might also step back because it's not socially appropriate to push things, which just causes more misunderstandings. You and your ex are a great (and, I must admit, hilarious) example. A lot of people don't realise Aspies have difficulty with metaphors or figures of speech, so they get offended and think they're rude. An Aspie might get confused and step away, which they think is what needs to be done, but the NT might think it's uncaring. What we need is some way to get the message out to NTs what Asperger's is like so they can understand when people say "I don't get it."
As for your ex, saying what people want to hear is common for NTs, depending on the situation. If its not a major issue, most NTs don't see the point in responding honestly when they could respond with what the person wants to hear. That allows for bonding. People who are too honest in all situations tend to get people annoyed with them. So, your ex probably wasn't that unusual :)
Of course, I understand not understanding. :/
However, forget socially appropriate when it comes to making assumptions that has you thinking negatively of another person--that is, villifying another (e.g., thinking someone is being narcissistic and then looking for evidence to prove that the person is narcissistic to support that assumption that has morphed into a rock solid belief). Really, I think that is just an excuse people use not to do something that is difficult for everyone to do. (Quotation from linked article: "Take risks and do things that might be hard or embarrassing or scary or frustrating until you master them.") I want to say to people in those sorts of situations: grow some gonads.
It's just not right to assume ill intent in someone you know well and have liked up until whatever it is that's happened that has you thinking differently about him/her. Hey, if you don't know the person or don't know them well, and have no reason to interact with them or develop a relationship... fine. Make the assumption and rule them out of your life. No harm, no foul. I'm not asking people to confront every Joe Shmoe. But do confront those who matter to you (e.g., because you have to work closely with them, because they've been a friend, because she married your brother and you will be forced to spend family vacations together for the next 30 years, etc.).
Well, if most NTs are like my ex, then I'm not certain I want to be close to any more NTs. I'm not talking about the little white lies that people tell to make others comfortable and to bond. I'm talking about major issues. (For example, when I realized that she was chasing a shiny bauble to deliver her from the anguish of being the partner of a disabled person, she said, "If you make me move out, I am going to live near you, and do your laundry, make your meals, care for you, and woo you. Because it is you I want and you I will have." When I pointed out later that she was saying that while wearing a new sweat shirt the shiny bauble had given her for the express purpose of silently signaling her when she got to work that everything was okay between them--I'm so proud of myself I was able to put one and one together to get two after the fact--, she admitted I was right, and then gave me that line about telling people what they want to hear. I went from being a beloved to a "people.")
And I can see NTs telling people what they want to hear (little white lies) might be good in small doses, but my sense is that far too many do this so much that it is difficult to know what they like and what they don't like. It's okay to have preferences.
Sometimes, we don't realise things need pursuing or investigation. Often, too, these things mount - they start off as little things we overlook and end up as big things we can't ignore any more. It happens to everyone, NT and Aspie, and in certain people more than others. It's quite strange that way.
Most NTs also aren't as explicit as your ex, and they tell people what they want to hear about certain things in certain situations. If a person suffers a break up and starts bad mouthing their ex, most NTs will agree their ex was terrible even if they don't think so, or they'll say a TV show/band/movie/etc. is "not bad" if their friend likes it but they don't. Few go as far as your ex and promise to devote their lives to someone even after moving out. If it means anything to you, though, we're more likely to try and please people we like than people we don't like, and try harder to please people we truly care about than people we're just friends with. It's still not usually as intense as what your ex said, though.
Some one told me that when an Aspie says "not bad," s/he means "not bad." (This is true for me. I mean what I say, though, I can misspeak or like anyone, be misunderstood.) However, when an NT says "not bad," others are supposed to interpret it as meaning something more. Like it is a polite way of saying something more. I take others at their word and don't read into things and then I find out I'm supposed to be reading into things? Way confusing.
I have a rule about not sweeping things under the rug. If I can't let something go and that something has me assuming something negative about another person, then I must address it. I can't say I overlook anything. My problem tends to be that something seems odd in context with the relationship, but I can't put my finger on it and/or don't know how to describe it and so I store it in an "odd" box in my head and await additional information. Sometimes additional information comes and I make sense of why I found whatever odd, but much more often one + one + one ends up equaling a bunch of ones that make no sense. That is, until someone delivers a baseball bat upside my head because s/he has been counting supposed slights, nurturing resentments, holding grudges mostly based on assumptions and because s/he never bothered to check it out. At least those ones in my odd box don't have negative assumptions attached to them. (This is something I am working on... how to get the odd out of my head and talked about.)
I like doing things for people, but I find I don't say things to please people. I try to be gentle (as gentle as I know how b/c NTs seem very sensitive to me), but that is to be kind and not stymie discourse any more than comes natural given my literalness, willingness to confront, willingness to state my needs, etc.
Most of the time, when an NT says "Not bad", that's exactly what they mean, too. Some will say "Not bad" and hope people read into it, but they tend to be the type who want attention. What is common, though, is that when an NT is talking to someone who they don't feel they know intimately, they'll say "Not bad" even if they're not, because it may make people uncomfortable to have someone else unload on them. If people aren't sure if they're close enough yet to unload their problems on someone else, they may still say "Not bad" or "It's nothing" when asked.
I think when you get blindsided by people who count insults, hold grudges against you, etc., they're not necessarily doing it because they don't follow up on things. With women especially, things aren't confronted directly, but if something annoys them, they'll give signs they don't approve - a disapproving glance, stiffness, a short tone in their voice, that they expect people to pick up on. From there, either the other person realises what they said/did was offensive, or they ask, "Was it something I did?" which gives a safe opening for the person to say, "Yes, I don't like this thing that you do." For NTs, it's a much safer way of resolving conflicts, because it stops things turning into arguments most of the time. You obviously wouldn't pick up on this because of your Asperger's. Remember, though, that an Aspie's world is as foreign to an NT as an NT's world is to an Aspie. You might have told them you have trouble in social situations, but they probably don't realise the reason you're not changing is because you honestly don't know you're doing anything wrong. The easiest thing to do might be to tell NTs from the outset to let you know if anything you do bothers them and explain why.
It's perfectly okay to tell the truth, but to be gentle about it. This could lead to some problems with people you're not very close to (they might get mad and say "You don't know me, why are you judging?"), but you should be pretty safe if you can put it to them the right way.
Thanks, but I wasn't talking about "not bad" when it comes to how you feel or laying your problems on someone. I was actually referring back to what you had written before. Like saying you thought a movie was not bad because a friend mentions she likes it. I think reading what I wrote in context to what you wrote will make more sense. So,I get that socially we're almost always supposed to say, "I'm fine" when someone says, "How are you?" And whatever else you had to say about that.
As for the rest of what you say, "Yes." I just experienced that very thing. I missed everything a friend was trying to communicate non-verbally (I got that something was odd but she had given me enough info that I thought I understood why things felt odd and so I was giving her space), and the one time friend translated everything about my not responding to her into nefariousness on my part. By the time she started shunning me in my own home (visiting her fiance), the friendship was done in her mind, but she still expected me to come to her to say "Poor baby, what's wrong?" so she could tell me off. When I decided not to respond to the shunning (that's a pretty obvious behavior... even I got that... though it still took a few weeks because I thought she was going through something with her fiance and was just rushing to his room so as to not reveal the discomfort between them... when it was me she was actually purposely hating on), in her mind, I was in the wrong for not approaching her. Well, as far as I am concerned shunning someone is beyond the pale, particularly in her own home. I can't imagine being so juvenile. Had she come to talk with me after about three weeks of that and said, "I'm angry because," it might have saved our relationship. However, the relationship was over for her... hence, the shunning of my evil, bad self.
I don't know that I'd ever respond to shunning and enable such over the top passive-aggressive behavior, particularly in someone who had displayed all sorts of obvious passive-aggressive behavior with her fiance... stuff that I could see (another reason I was confused about the shunning behavior). Seriously, I wanted to say, "Just grow up. You're in your 40s for pity's sake. Time to learn how to talk about your problems instead of storming out of the house so your man will run after you, giving people the silent treatment so he'll beg you to talk with him, pouting all the time so he'll talk baby talk to you and change his behavior (not because he wants to but because he can't handle the pout), etc."
What you describe about NT women sounds passive aggressive and immature to me.
I just wish people would grow some... if you're offended, speak up. That can be done gently and safely. Why make other people come to you? Why create an eggshell environment? I don't get it. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't know how women and men don't get tired of that.
As I mentioned, I always try to be gentle with people. One thing I've learned though, is if I do ask, "Are you okay with ______?" (something I did and I'm getting a weird vibe from someone), many people avoid answering honestly. It is hard to tell whether they are telling the truth or not. But over time, you can find out that the person in fact didn't like something and even though you gave them an opportunity to tell you, they don't. I guess they're doing more of that body language stuff, including facial cues, that are supposed to tell me otherwise. But all I have is their word to go on.
I plan on telling people in the future of the issue. Trouble is, I am very high functioning and people expect me to be savvy. I mean, I seem very intuitive in terms of what I can discern from words when it comes to something going on in someone's life. It--this "intuition" just doesn't work when it involves me. Mostly because I am not engaging in any drama with anyone (I'm being honest, and what you see is what you get and so expect the same in return), and so I can't imagine that they've included me in the same sort of dramas that I pick up on in their other relationships.
I mean, aren't there people out there who have real authentic relationships with people? Does everything refer back to their childhood or old boyfriends or old friends who betrayed them? Or am I just unlucky?
My mother says that I just miss all sorts of clues when it comes to reading people's character. She's asked me, "How in the world did you become friends with them? Didn't you see thus and so?" Me? "No, Mom, that's the point. I don't see it or I don't make sense of it. It doesn't mean the same thing to me." Trouble is, she sees it. She can call it.
I think I need an NT translator.
And about telling people....
While I didn't know I had Asperger's, I knew about the ADD and my issues with time, but that didn't stop my last partner from seeing my time issues as being personal. And it's not like I don't work on time issues all the time. I'm a constant work in progress when it comes to that.
Also, though I didn't know the name dyscalculia and dysgraphia, I knew I had an issue of barrelling ahead once my mind was set on a goal and I had trouble switching directions. For example, if my goal is to get through a tight crowd, I can get through it quickly and without running into someone (probably better than most). But if I am shopping and see something I want to walk toward, I will miss people and cut them off or walk into them. In the house, if my partner was standing at the kitchen sink blocking the cupboard a bit to her right where the trash can was, I would be opening the door and hitting her leg before saying, "Sorry" or "excuse me." I mean, I'd see her leg, but my brain would not process it.
In order not to do that, I'd have to remember as she was standing there and while I was approaching the situation from afar, "Hey, I almost always bump her leg when going for the trash. This time look to see if her leg is blocking the way and then say 'excuse me,' wait, she'll move her leg, then you can get into the trash." I don't think NTs understand how hard it is to remember things like this because they are not having these issues. In an NTs mind, I am supposed to see the leg and say, "Excuse me." But my brain isn't processing the leg; it's processing "door, trash can" because that's my goal. Of course, my goal in life is to be considerate of people too, but people are not doors and trash cans. They don't fall into the same category; the leg has nothing to do with the goal.
Same thing can happen if I have to cross in front of or behind someone to get to my side of the car if we are walking together. More often than not, I'll cut them off. I understand that's very rude. I'm not trying to be. My brain just doesn't process that I'm doing that. And it is so very awkward, clumsy. I seem totally self centered and ungracious at times like that... when it doesn't feel like me. It feels like, "brain transporting to car door."
Why this isn't a problem while driving the car is beyond me.
Of course, my ex could not believe that that one little thing was so VERY hard for me (or things like it). It was and it still is with the roommates I've had since. It was not her. It was not me trying to drive her crazy. Why don't NTs believe us when we try to explain these sorts of things?
So... I don't know that I feel confident that NTs will be able to hold in their minds that I have Asperger's. I think they, used to what they are used to, are more likely than not going to revert back to thinking I'm nefarious. And if they have such a hard time with that (I'm betting on it), then why can't they believe me when I say, "This is how my brain works; I'm not trying to annoy you"?
Actually, the thing about giving subtle signs and not saying anything isn't the same for every NT. The more mature ones will say something when they realise it isn't working, while the less mature ones won't. Of course, it typically doesn't go on too long, because usually the other NT notices and says something. It's more commonly seen in women than in men. Women in our culture are socialised not to get involved in direct confrontation; it's a throw-back from when our gender was a minority. It's something that's beginning to change, but culture doesn't change quickly.
And yes, I assure you, authentic relationships exist. Don't worry, they're out there. It might be your Asperger's that complicates it, but everyone has the potential to find it.
As for telling people, there's a reason why they can't seem to remember your Asperger's. To you, the mind of an NT is foreign; you can't imagine it because it's so completely different from how your own brain works. The thing is, it's not unique for Aspies to not be able to put themselves in another person's place - NTs can't put themselves in an Aspie's place, either. An Aspie's mind is just as foreign and alien to an NT as an NT's mind is to an Aspie. They have just as much trouble understanding how your brain works as you have understanding their's. They don't seem to "get it" because they don't know how to put themselves in your place. the best you can hope for is holding out for someone who has experience with ASD/Asperger's, or someone who's unusually good at putting themselves in another person's place; they'll understand you when you say that's how your brain works.
Actually, I can usually put myself in other people's shoes when it comes to feelings. To some degree I can anticipate how I might be received as well.
My ability to put myself in someone's shoes breaks down because I act differently than an NT might in my delivery at times (or even by making the decision to act) or my relative ability to pick up on the meaning of another's response is going to be off. When it comes to feelings, I understand the sort of things that generate the whole host of feelings that people experience. I have those feelings. I know betrayal, I know anger, etc. and when things happen to people, I can put myself in their shoes.
Again, the break down occurs when I am part of the picture. So I have successfully provided career and crises counseling and have conducted divorce, family, and business mediation because when in those roles I am not the subject and the interaction is not about me and the other person(s). Although I miss cues, I have a good sense of human nature, what makes people tick in general (it's the specifics that throw me in the work and personal world... it's when I am expected to perform outside of a prescribed role). I wouldn't have been good at the work I did if I were unable to put myself in other people's shoes.
So I think that is a huge generalization that we can't put ourselves in other people's shoes. If someone can tell me what they are feeling I can usually imagine it. However, I can't understand what I cannot see or discern from the tools that are available to me. I have trouble is seeing myself--what's different about me (other than the talking) from others--, and how my difference impacts others. I think NTs often have this trouble too, though.
Mostly, we (all of us) have trouble understanding/imagining what we ourselves don't experience. (For example, if I experience paranormal experiences, if I have clairvoyant experiences, and you've never experienced anything like that, you might believe me when I say that I have these experiences but have a difficult time understanding/imagining them, though you may decide since you don't have the experiences that there's a purely psychological explanation for my experience. Just as some people think that an Asperger's diagnosis is an excuse people use to behave badly.) So I think I get your point in regard to that.
I hope that was clear.
Oh... and it is just plain weird to be very authentic in my interactions with others and yet have such a hard time having authentic relationships with others. I think I'm having one until the baseball bat lands. I'm so naive in that way. I feel like I'm groping in the dark all the time.
Yes, you were clear. I apologise for that generalisation, but it's still true in one respect: most NTs can't imagine the world through an Aspie's eyes. Your ability to give advice to other people might put you at a disadvantage here, actually, because people think, "Come on! She knew exactly what was going on when it was between our co-workers, why can't she figure it out with me?"
Anyway, I hope you can find someone who actually does have an idea of what you can do and what you can't, and who doesn't mind it and is willing to work around it. I'm sure you'll be very happy when you meet them :)
(Deleted the remainder of this post.)
The spectrum is a spectrum, and so we will vary in regard to our abilities.
As for odd, it's also odd that I have great proprioception with my car and little to none with my body, and virtually none with my head.
Thanks for your kind words.
Thanks again for the comments. I've been thinking about what I wrote (and why it is so confusing), which I've since deleted because what I write here makes more sense, and I was reminded of something I already know that makes a difference between business encounters (I do better in the role/client relationship or meetings... I still fail water cooler with fellow co-workers) and personal relationships.
Business encounters of the role/customer ilk are generally structured and time limited. Part of the structure involves expressed goals. In those roles, I can match up the goals to what people are saying... logically. (And it helps that I've preferred roles, for the most part, that involve customers who are motivated to be more fully themselves, more authentic, providing a greater match between affect and word--e.g., they're generally in some sortof pain and in need of help.) When something doesn't jive (dissonance b/w the goal and the words stated), it gives me the clue that there may be other goals or barriers that have yet to be addressed. (I was particularly good at this in mediation, often out surpassing my NT co-mediators who would miss the dissonance between goal and word and I found it particularly effective to illustrate this to clients in a separate caucus.) I feel comfortable in a role. I know what my duties are.
I think like many people with Asperger's if I like human interaction at all, I prefer it to be in controlled settings where I know what to expect. Like church, but not the coffee scene afterward, which is why I would spend my time greeting new people and helping fairly new people feel at home or cleaning up, etc. I could play a role.
My close friendships have all been like business meetings. I don't shop with friends, I don't typically play sports with friends, I don't excercise with friends (things I might have done back when I was physically well)... I go out to eat with friends and talk. (Eating is a social activity that lends itself to talking.) I might go to a party with friends, but I find those situations very uncomfortable (people often behave differently at parties), but do them because they are expected to maintain the friendship.
I noticed that all my friends were the sort who would sit down and pour out themselves to me and me to them. When people have issues with themselves (and not me) and are trying to share, I know a lot about psychology and how emotions work and so I can make sense of what they are saying, fill between the lines. Often my friends have been quite talented in fields that I admire but have no talent in and so I also make for a great audiennce and cheerleader. And I have the ability to discern issues/concerns/etc. that arise in their chosen field--I've held many positions and was a career counselor at one time--, making me someone they can talk with about concerns and ideas outside their field without feeling judged about it. Sometimes the conversations would be serious and other times not (flights of the imagination), but often they did not involve the day-to-day stuff of relationship. (I've only had a couple friends like that when I was younger... people I was so comfortable with I could have them around a lot like a partner.) Because I pick up on a dissonance between their personal stated goals and words they've used, I'm seen as very insightful. Like, I am very aware and pick up on everything with great clarity. (Not true.)
With friendships there are unstated goals: love, loyality (fealty to them above all others in their life... so that I consider their needs above those in their life except for children... children's emotional, mental, and physical health comes first and foremost before that of any adult), caring, etc. A good Aspie friend (a virtual friend) once pointed out to me that when I decide that I like someone that person gets my gold stamp of approval. And my mother pointed out that I give my heart to people too quickly. So the gold stamp comes quickly. And I don't diverge from the unstated goals of the friendship (at least my goals).
So when a friend's behavior (behavior not words) toward me doesn't match the friendship goals I think we have (I always think they are mutual), I (1) find it odd and store the information until I collect more if any (but often cannot make sense of it b/c of theory of mind issues... and I can't even make enough sense of it to express the sense of oddness or discomfort to the friend), (2) I look for something to explain the apparent divergence so that it is not a divergence (giving the person the benefit of the doubt) and usually there is something (e.g., not everything is about me, etc. AND more importantly, I don't make nefarious assumptions b/c I believe the other person is the living embodiment of the goals we have as friends to each other), and I have finally learned that people frequently try to cover potential problems with words (until, I guess, they decide what they are going to do) and since words are the thing I can focus on... I believe them, and/or (3) I have learned to allow people, for the most part, to tell me when something is up.
Now, with partners I check in with regularity to give them a chance to voice concerns, however, I learned with my first partner of 21 years and with some friends early on, that if I check in too much (and vaguely b/c like I said, I can't make sense of what is odd), then I annoy people. Many times--most of the time--their odd behavior is not about me (it's about work, or something else on their mind), many times it is just something that the person had to work out on his or her own (even if it involves the relationship), etc. And so rather than be annoying, I made the decision long ago to rely on others to be grown ups and come to me if they have a problem with me. I do that. For example, when friends use the phrase white trash--a phrase that I cannot tolerate--, I tell them. Also, I've learned, as I mentioned above, that when I check in with people, they are not always ready to be honest (mostly it seems that they are not) and that also contributes to my waiting until people are ready to 'fess up to what's bothering them.
In the situation above, there was a real change in our mode of interacting (from almost exclusive one-on-one meetings to her being around the house and also doing things in small groups with others). So I found myself in small group settings with a person I had never been in small group settings with. (Indeed, I have had some close friends with whom I was used to being in small group settings because their friendships grew out of social situations that involved a group of friends and so I had a sense of them in those settings as well as when alone with them.) She did not act the same outside of our one-on-one meetings; she was markedly different in a way that I just attributed to shyness. I attributed the difference to the setting/shyness because I had nothing else to go on.
Again, I was not thinking nefariousness on her part (the difference just went into my odd box and also I relied on the cover she provided me in words... she was, now I see with hindsight, engaging in a cover up of uncomfortable feelings)... I was not thinking that she was departing from what I thought were shared goals. She on the other hand must have seen things in me that she had not seen (indeed, some of the difference in me over time was due to the discomfort I felt with the dramatic change in her behavior... I was not used to her being so silent, so without opinion) and assumed nefariousness on my part, and then started reframing her who view of me based on this nefarious assumption, one that supported the childhood trauma drama she was in the middle of re-enacting after a trigger nearly a year before. The injury to our relationship because even graver because she kept offering "cover words" to explain away changes in her behavior. And, of course, I gave her the benefit of the doubt and thought she'd speak the truth if something were truly bothering her.
Now, as I've gone through over three years of drama with people who have gotten close to me that had to do with mental health issues and re-enactments of childhood trauma dramas with me being unwittingly cast from role of trusted friend to that of villain, my psychologist watched and listened to what was going on. Often I did not fill him in until months into the situation when things became whacky because for me things were just a bit odd not off the rails. At the point of "things are looking whacky," I would trot out what I thought had been odd (usually just a few clues b/c no doubt I had missed everything else), and so he got to watch first as I made no sense of it, and he was able to formulate all sorts of possibilities. (Again the difference between the goals and expectations of business situations and personal ones.) Indeed, in one situation, he had to tell me to have someone move out because I was not safe... in that, my health could not handle the all the stress the person was creating for me. In the one involving the friend above, he couldn't ask that of me because he knew I was committed to providing a roof over the housemate's children's head throughout the school year and that I would sacrifice my health for those children. (I'm already disabled and I've lived my life; these are important years for them... becoming homeless twice in one year is not anything I'd do to a child.)
My not seeing what he was seeing (and the fact that when I'd talk to friends they'd see the same thing as him)--I, like I've said elsewhere, usually don't see until the person hits me upside the head with a baseball bat (often with words) and then the odd stuff starts to make sense--convinced him to run a bunch of tests. In addition, the Pollyanna defense I'd had trouble shaking began to make sense as Asperger's naivete.
At any rate, I hope this helps explain that and by writing this, I might better explain the difficulty to other people who come into my life... so they have of chance of getting the challenges I face in human interaction.
Thanks for making me think and articulate... sense making.
I find your stories fascinating to read. It's clear to me your trouble with knowing when to ask if someone is okay is causing most of these relationship issues - at first they think it's something to keep private, so they say "Nothing is wrong", and you retreat. Because you don't ask again, they begin feeling cheated when they think you really should have asked them again what was wrong, because they were giving signs (usually they'd give these signs if they weren't sure how to bring it up on their own; NTs can be notoriously bad at speaking their minds about problems they have). It's nobody's fault; it's more a misunderstanding of Asperger's and the limitations that come with it.
A person might get upset if you ask too many times if they're okay, but if you feel something might be off, why not try talking to a friend of yours? If they know the person you're talking to, they could offer you some insight into what's happening. You're also quite good at expressing yourself in writing; if you have trouble explaining to an NT why you need them to talk to you about things, why not write it down for them to read? It might help get your words across to them :)
I love how the onus gets put on the person who is both relatively clueless (but is not perceived as being so) and has already given the person an opportunity to share and has no trouble speaking her mind. And others know this about me... that I have no trouble speaking my mind (unless I think what I might have to say would do harm... I try to be careful in my speech). So if I were having an issue with someone, I'd be talking. But I'm not about to force someone to talk with me when they have an issue with me. However, I think the note idea is good... once the sense of off enters my internal dialog (a potentially long process).
Odd happenings get stored away for future reference (even if I address them at the time), while a sense of something being "off" in the relationship has difficulty piercing my consciousness. It's like the watcher in me sees that something is off, but what I see doesn't quite make it into my internal dialog (cause it makes no sense... doesn't get translated into words easily). So months and months (even years) can go by, compounding the situation.
I'd feel totally responsible if not for the fact that I tend to initially respond somehow--that is, I tend to respond to odd moments along the way (granted there are probably many odd moments that I just don't pick up on... moments that contribute to the sense of off, but don't rise to the level of odd and so get no storage space in my mind)--, and if I had a problem with the person, s/he would know it. (Or in the case of this most recent fiasco, I took the friend at her word and responded by giving her the space I thought she needed.)
In this recent case, I spoke with her fiance (because she had become upset when I drew a boundary and said I didn't want to get involved in an issue that involved her, her fiance, and his daughter and she wouldn't tell him why she was so upset that day and for days after), though he, of course, did not share with me what her concerns about me were (I had no idea other than I wouldn't "listen to her side").
He stood up for me (or so I found out later when he told me... then again, over time I learned that his main goal is to always look good in other people's eyes even at the expense of those he loves, including his fiance... he is a massager of messages) for a while--that is, until she brought out the heavy artillary of emotional blackmail and threatened to leave him. Then, over time, he became convinced of her delusions about me (the nefariousness I was supposedly up to).
By the time, I knew the relationship was off the rails I was being shunned in my own home. At that point, it was my decision not to enable her passive-aggressive behavior toward me. I mean, if her fiance wants to be in relationship with someone whose primary way of dealing with conflict is screaming, crying, making threats, and being otherwise passive aggressive that's up to him, but I don't expect a friend who has that sort of difficulty in a love relationship to extend that behavior toward me and expect me to beg for her approval the way she expects him to.
Also, because it took me about three weeks to realize the shunning had to do with me, the friend had an opportunity to assess the effectiveness of her strategy... IF her strategy was designed to get me to talk with her, as she later claimed (of course, she made contradictory claims--many of them--later). I can't imagine using shunning--say for more than 20 minutes--as a strategy to get someone to talk. Seems very aggressive and mean spirited to me. If someone can shun me for three weeks and not come and say, "I'm really pissed at you, but this is getting us nowhere," then I don't believe that person is capable of being a healthy friend.)
My counselor and other friends (friends who knew this person but not well) thought she was jealous of me and her fiance, my relationship with his children, and me in general, but my brain couldn't wrap around that, and it seemed unlikely to me that she'd admit to that if I approached her because (1) I'm a lesbian with no interest in her man other than as a friend and (2) I'm disabled. I had to rely on people... I'm not at all well... what's to be jealous of? Made no sense to me and it felt hugely egotistical to even entertain the idea. But, of course, she said at least two things that would suggest that. In my mind, what she said applied specifically to just those two things and nothing more and so, therefore, didn't explain what was off. And we had already talked about it. Again, in my mind, taken care of unless she wanted to explore the concerns more.
So... I'd like to think this person's behavior was extreme. But let's face it.
My seeming to refuse to respond to all of those NT messages that I miss along the way must seem extreme to other people.
Certainly, my ex partners have fit your description of NTs as being notoriously bad about speaking their minds when they have a problem, despite having a partner who is very much interested in what they have to say and in their being authentic and living the life they want to live. Then again, that must be really scary to any one who is not comfortable with their shadow... even the idea that they have one.
Now, I have a diagnosis I can share, and I can try the letter thing when off reaches my internal dialog. I can also work at trying to connect "off" to my conscious dialog.
To explain "off" in Aspie terms, off is like my seeing body language but (1) not being able to attend because I am paying attention to the words being said and I can't pay attention to both... can't process the body language at the time, and (2) I often don't know what the body language means. When words and body language are in disagreement, I know logically that I'm supposed to pay attention to the body language that my brain often does not recognize or is not processing well. I have little ability to hold it in my mind. OFF is like that.
Again, I've found this dialog useful in understanding my limitations. If ever in another relationship, I hope I meet someone who understands that what they see is what they get in me and that being direct with me is what is needed... and nothing they need to be scared of. I know saying that doesn't make it so, as NTs seem very frightened of even the potential of conflict.
I thought I'd say a word about fault finding and misunderstanding.
I understand misunderstanding and I don't find it useful to fault find. However, I do expect people to own their own shit. Perhaps I am expecting too much. One, we're not always aware of what shit is ours. Two, ego often gets in the way of doing that. And three, well, it's difficult for people in general.
I think, however, if we are going to assume nefariousness in someone whom we have liked, trusted, and cared for, then before turning our assumptions into fact, we owe the person a confrontation. I think that only fair. Then, again, life is not fair. It's even less fair, however, because we humans make it so.
About the situation above...
Right now, I only have assumptions about the fiance: the assumption that something happened to trigger a trauma drama re-enactment or perhaps I was a pawn in her getting her fiance to boot his kids and move in with her. Both might be wrong... there could be other misunderstandings that would explain the odd turn in her behavior. (For me, looking like someone who was family--a charge she considered very telling about my character--when I am not was because her fiance invited me into that position without telling her EVER.) Assumptions that cannot be tested because she is certain I am nefarious and narcissistic. She has no doubt about the conclusions she drew, acted upon or as I see it: made charges against me, prosecuted and tried me without my input, pronounced me guilty, judged me, then hung me in absentia... I was only called in for the flaying of the body and told that nothing I had to say would make any difference.
I had made a tentative assumption about the trauma drama re-enactment and knew because of my illness that I didn't have the energy to cope with whatever might happen (to our relationship, to her state of mind, to the fiance's kids, etc.) if I shared that, and I was obligated as a friend to do no harm. I hoped she would honor my decision to draw a boundary. Even as I thought there was a trauma drama being re-enacted, I did not think nefarious thoughts about her. I simply assessed my limits and tried to stay within those. Regardless, making a decision not to be involved in a triangle when two of the parties are living in your home while one of the two is a friend as well as the one not living in your home is a totally valid boundary to draw.
I see what you're saying, though I can't offer you much further insight into your ex (I'd have to speak to her for that to get her side of things, but that clearly won't happen). You could always try an ad in the paper or a dating website if you want to be sure of finding someone as direct as you want (if you feel comfortable with it, of course).
I just hope you don't think less of NTs for not being as direct as you need them to be; being too direct more often than not creates problems between people, so being subtle about things is a strategy used by our culture to move through problems without much friction. The problems with this come up when the other person isn't able to pick up on that subtlety or doesn't know how to respond to it. You may not like forcing people to talk if they don't want to, but it may be a good idea to tell people when you first start a relationship with them that you need them to be direct when taking up their issues with you (or put it in a note when something seems off, and explain that you won't be able to do anything unless they're more open about what's wrong). Some people may not be fully comfortable with it, in part because they may not be sure when something first seems off to you like the problems they have are big enough to discuss (like you not confronting something when it only seems slightly off). You're sure to find someone who understands that, though, and who won't mind being more direct with their problems - it may be easier at your age, when you're more likely to find someone who's had a chance to mature somewhat.
I appreciate your saying this: "I just hope you don't think less of NTs for not being as direct as you need them to be; being too direct more often than not creates problems between people, so being subtle about things is a strategy used by our culture to move through problems without much friction." My observation is that this doesn't seem to work so well for NTs... with each other. People seem to spend so much time wondering what others are thinking (e.g., What did ___ mean by that? And so on.) It definitely isn't working for me. :/
The above was about a friend and her fiance (this is long... it wouldn't bother me in the least if you didn't read it... I'm just clarifying how obtuse I was... and you can't know what she saw or thought she saw).
The fiance lived in my home to help me out and for me to help him out through rough economic times--I took him in, his son in, and then his daughter when she and her mother became homeless--b/c supposedly the fiance's mother didn't like him and there was no room in the fiance's home for him and one or more of his kids, a home owned by her mother. He operated a business out of my home, and between him and his kids, used the study, his bedroom, the sunroom, and the garage. He now lives with his fiance sans his kids. His daughter is living with me until her mother can get her life together financially and move to town. He won't even drive by here to let his daughter pick up her stuff if they are going somewhere together; it's really childish and very sad for his kids. I am just following through on a promise to the daughter and hope she is living with her mother soon.
Supposedly, I did all that and more with nefarious motives--to steal him, despite being a lesbian, to steal his kids, and to ditch my friendship with her to be friends with his 13 year old daughter. She was embattled with him about the girl, and a situation that was rocking the boat of their attempts to mesh together their two families. It was a teenage trauma drama they seemed to be involved in and the boundary I set appears to have been the straw that broke the camel's back for her. This was the triangle(s) (and building drama)--between her, him and me or her, him, and the girl or her, me and the girl--that I was trying not to be pulled into.
My crime was that I overheard the girl crying not long after she moved in (I thought she might be homesick), and I went to comfort her, stumbling into her perception of the teenage trauma drama (the trauma drama I had heard about from my friend on and off for a year). A perspective that seemed quite balanced (generally appreciative of others' points of view and revealing of what she did wrong--I've been a mediator and so I've watched lots of people tell "their story"), listened, comforted, and told the child I could not get in the middle of things. Then told my friend when she brought it up that I didn't want to be in the middle of it and didn't want to discuss what was happening between them--that I didn't think it wise with him and his daughter living in my home. I assured her that the daughter seemed to be trying to have a balanced perspective. (Apparently this attempt to help her see favorable intent on the daughter's part was my taking sides with the daughter and not reporting what I had seen in an effort to help ease tensions.)
Apparently, according to her and the fiance, I emboldened the girl by telling the girl that I didn't understand their decision (cause I didn't have all the information they had). However, I also expressly supported that it was their decision to make as parental figures regarding consequences and told her that she ought to follow her father's restrictions. I also tried to help her better understand how the situation might have made the friend's daughters feel. If she could expand her understanding of their feelings--have more compassion for their pain--, she might more easily accept the restrictions and work toward mending fences (that was the idea). I've been a crisis counselor and a mediator; I know how to reality test and get people thinking about their goals, putting ego aside. (And teens have to deal with the reality of their parents parenting style and the parents right to make the rules.)
Later, at the flaying, I was accused of hurting the friend's two wonderful, nice, kind girls. As far as I know, that was my "hurtful" connection to the girls for the longest time--helping his daughter try to better understand their pain--other than welcoming them into my home. (Except for when both of his children confided with me much later--months after the shunning of me by my friend started--why they didn't enjoy spending time with her girls. According to them, her girls complain all the time, are too cool for everything, superior to everyone, often talking in a mean-spirited way about others. I just listened... aunt-like and tried, without passing judgment on the girls, to help them develop strategies for being with them and keeping as positive a mindset as possible because their being together as a family was likely inevitable.)
Aside from this--wanting to keep healthy boundaries by staying out of their attempts to bond their two families through a difficult drama, their decisions as parental figures--, I was actually incredibly grateful to the two of them--her fiance (my housemate) for staying by my side as a friend when I became disabled and for her for becoming "a true friend" when my partner left me the year before.
Through all of my housemate's time in my home, I continued to encourage his daughter to make amends with his fiance... to work through their differences. I was as positive as I could have been even with all the crap going on around me, and the hatred directed at me by her.
I can see that she was frustrated that their relationship--in terms of them living together--was moving forward at such a slow pace toward her desired goals (5 years together and over a year engaged). She said to me after he moved in, "You are getting the family I wanted." And five months later when I told her that he was going through all sorts of effort to decorate his bedroom in a way that was pleasing to her, she said to me, "He is doing it for you."
I corrected the misperception, and I also thought that very weird. But I, being dense, obtuse, unable to read signs, thought that there was no way she could think nefarious thoughts about me or him and me, and so I thought my clarifying his intent would take care of that. WRONG. (I only brought it up to brag on him so she would know how much he was in love with her, the sort of care he was taking for her... I've always thought it nice to brag on people to their partners regarding the other person's efforts on their behalf when it seems appropriate.) I didn't connect her "You're getting the family I wanted" to that nor did I connect her excuses to me to explain her distancing herself.
And also, I can see how her not knowing that he had asked that we--his kids and I--live more like a family (I took him to mean in the way a sister living with him would behave), that I be like an aunt to his kids, and had told me that I was like a sister to him would cause her to think there was something different about my behavior. It was a little more familiar, which I think is also normal for housemates even if one has not been invited to act like an aunt.
She was around a lot, but generally stiffed me when it came to interactions. According to her at the flaying I didn't know how to make people feel comfortable. (Note that I've had housemates before, housemates with partners and I have never been told I didn't know how to make people feel comfortable in my home. I've always been told I have a comfortable home.) It appears that we--she and I--had different ideas about what "comfortable" meant.
She, from what I gathered at the flaying, had a "he's renting a room as a border" sense of comfortable--stay out of our way almost all the time "you narcissistic bitch" sense of comfortable--, and I had a "he asked me to act like family" sense, but scaled back because she always seemed like a bit of a prickly pear and I wanted to respect their relationship. My buying a bench to make it easy for her daughters and his kids to eat together was attributed to a shopping compulsion. My telling him I would leave and visit my mother so they could have dinners together and letting him know that her kids were also welcome to stay over was all part of some big plot of mine, I guess, to win his heart.
Here I was thinking that their situation was odd and anything I could do to help them bond as a larger family (while I was getting the help I really needed and the joy of having people in my home), by getting out of the way, would be appreciated. EVERYTHING in her mind, and eventually his, was about my stealing family. Even my trying to get his son to consider his contribution to the argument that he and his dad had when he was contemplating running away was construed as my trying not to break up "our happy family." (No, it couldn't be that I was trying to act like a responsible adult who had been asked to act like an aunt... to get the boy to consider his part before escalating the conflict.) When, in fact, the boy had wanted to live with his mother and had been trying to save money to do that for seven months, and the teenage squabbling b/w his sister and him had caused me to consider a few months after his sister moved in to offer the finances necessary to make that happen just to end the arguing. I'm sick I didn't need all that teen bickering. But I decided that it probably was not a good idea to bail them out (he, the housemate, was of the sort to be consistently bailed out by women in his life) and financially it would not have been wise for me.
It never occurred to me to tell my friend that he had asked me to act like family (family, aunt, sister), as it seemed like something he would say to her, and of course, I attributed non-nefarious reasons to her changing behavior (in part because she provided what I now see were excuses... I just couldn't make sense of the incongruence b/w what she said and how she acted... my inability to make sense of incongruent words and actions is a huge issue for me). I had no idea she was actually having hostile thoughts about me for some time until weeks after the shunning started 10 months after he moved in.
(Also, she said their friends told her I acted weird... like his girlfriend or something. Yeah, I'm from an Irish family where family is close, admiring. If you've ever been to a real Irish pub, you'd know what I was talking about... the Irish have never met a stranger. And I was very grateful for the help and felt incredibly indebted to my housemate for helping me out, not to mention grateful that he saw me as a big sister given that my brother had died a few years before. I was close to my brother like that... closer... much closer. When we went to get pictures together for our parents' anniversary, the photographer thought us husband and wife and posed us that way, coming from an Irish family we didn't think anything wrong with the poses. The photographer, in realizing his error, called our attention to it. And I wasn't hanging on or kissing my brother the day we went in for pictures either. Also, I was also attentive to her, my friend. I had felt very close to her, though the distancing was weird, I was waiting it out, hoping she come to terms with his living there, get comfortable with it. She was my real emotional attachment between the two of them. He was just a good friend who was interesting to talk with, but not anyone who truly liked to be emotionally intimated with others--besides, I had drawn that boundary too when he moved in. I wanted to make sure the three of us didn't form a triangle. My friendship allegience was to her first. She had been, I thought, a close friend. And I didn't hang on him, didn't flirt with him, didn't kiss him, didn't do anything that I'd associate with girlfriend behavior. I didn't feel that way toward him. And she was obviously uncomfortable--that distancing behavior I couldn't make sense of except to think that she was still adjusting to the fact that he was living here and not with her--and her friends no doubt felt her discomfort and looked for something to be afoot.)
At first--the first two to three weeks of shunning--, I thought their fighting, which was fairly continuous, had escalated and she was just embarrassed, wanting to get into his room as soon as possible. Yes, I was that dense. I knew that she had been upset that I hadn't wanted to talk with her about "her side" of the teenage trauma drama and that she found that hurtful (a friend withdrawing her ear), but she had seemed to come around after that. (I later found out that her doubts started pre his moving in and yet they had discussed his moving in and she had agreed to it.)
Had I not been so sick, I might have tried to negotiate my way through listening to her "side" (as she called it) while he and the kids lived in my home (this drama that appeared to have the possibility of stretching out into the future, which I was later blamed for causing it to do. But I knew I couldn't handle the potential fall out if any, and I didn't want to cause harm when I knew I didn't have the where-with-all to handle what seemed to be potentially huge psychological issues beyond my tired-assed ability to cope. So I risked whatever fall out that might happen by drawing a sensible and totally reasonable boundary. A boundary my psychologist agreed that I had the right to draw. A boundary the fiance, my housemate agreed I had the right to draw... until she convinced him otherwise. (She later emotionally black mailed him... I heard her yelling--months into the shunning--, "I will move, quit my job, and throw you in the trash along with everything else." He later told me on his own that they had been talking about me and he had been defending me and she accused him of telling her she was mean.)
No doubt there was something different about my interactions with him and his kids (I mean, he had not lived in my home before, and this arrangement was also different and not the norm for two engaged people). How I behaved must have looked strange to her, and what is weird is that he let her convince him over time that it was strange even though he had asked me to be like family. Even in regard to his daughter whom she had issues with, I know how I behaved (the number and kinds of interactions we had), and yet they had an entire belief system that had they had cobbled together from a lot of conjecture that painted a very different picture, one involving many more interactions and interactions focused on their drama (a conspiracy).
As far as I know, he has never told her this (what he asked of me), and when I confronted him after the flaying, he warned me to stay away from her and never contact her again. Seriously, I am evil personified to them. Like I would even want to speak with someone who purported to care about me but thought nefarious thoughts about me without checking them out and who shunned me in my own home. Not to mention went about the community talking about me and painting a very ugly picture of me.
She doesn't even know that he allowed her to look bad to his kids and me so that he didn't have to be responsible for things they had decided jointly (ways for them to cope with the endless teenage drama that continued to unfold). And it took me a long while to figure that out... I didn't figure it out until after he left. So I'm accused of making her look bad to his kids while he lived here when he did that and while she virtually ignored them when she'd come over.
Other examples of my obtuseness is that I made Easter baskets for the kids and him because I've always done that for whomever lived with me. (I also always made Christmas presents for everyone who ever worked with me too, though the culture often did not call for that. I don't give to get in return. I give because I like to.) I didn't ask her her plans because I didn't want to put her into the position of feeling like I wanted us to do something together or that I was trying to change their traditions (they'd been doing stuff for five years... I figured they had their traditions). I've noticed that NTs will often include someone when they don't want to only to resent them later.
I did the same thing about pumpkin carving at Halloween... something I do each year. And I asked him a month in advance if it was okay... he could have suggested we do the carving with her and her kids.
I also bought some stuff when the kids moved in so the kids would feel at home (it must be weird to be boarding with someone) and didn't consult her. (Heck, I didn't want her to feel obligated to spend money. It felt like my place to do that. It's not like it was her home she was wanting them to feel welcome in. She later told me I was WRONG; I should have asked her.)
Also, when it came to Christmas I always put stockings up for me, Mom, and the dogs. I asked my housemate a full month before doing it whether it would be okay to do that for him and the kids so the kids wouldn't feel left out of the Christmas spirit. He was pleased and said yes. At the flaying, she said, "But you didn't put up a stocking for me." (When I told my mother about that accusation, my mother, an NT said, "She wasn't living there." Duh. I did buy her a gift, a special gift related to her career goals. My mother bought the two of them a gift, a celebration of their coupledom... but I was "trying" to break them up.) Well, I didn't put up a stocking for her kids either... they weren't living here. She didn't live here and she had been shunning me for a month. Did she really expect a stocking after that? He could have put up a stocking for her and for her kids, as he was living here. I had made it clear that he could put some of his household decorations up when he moved in (that I would put some of my stuff in storage so the place might feel more familiar to him and his kids); he took me up on that in the study, making it his.
Also, by the time his son had a birthday (already living with his mom), the housemate had lost his license and the boy's truck was shaky. I gave the kid a present and was sitting there when the Dad asked if he wanted to go to get icecream. I was invited because the son didn't want to take the truck. Then, I realized I was invited because I could drive and I said that out loud and laughed (truly, in a friendly sort of way).
At the flaying, I learned the friend had provided the money for the icecream, and yet I had the "nerve" to take her place. I was used for my car, but I was nefarious. If she had not been ignoring his kids and continuing to carry on with the two-year-old trauma drama, she could have pulled up outside and taken the housemate and his kids to the icecream place even if she was hating on me and unable to force herself to come into my home. But no, that was my nefariousness too. I was totally responsible for her not getting along with them, or in her words, for "ruining my already shaky relationship with them." (Note, that a friend of mine, someone who knows them, reported seeing her repeatedly show distain for the daughter, but the father only sees the daughter having difficulty with his fiance. The fiance has no responsibility for the rift there.)
(She was welcome in my home, a place where she was welcome as long as she would not shun me; I would have been pleasant to her. I remained pleasant even as she shunned me until after 2.5 months when I could no longer take the dagger eyes and told the fiance she was welcome as long as she could be on friendly terms... we didn't have to be friends but we didn't have to be unpleasant. At the flaying, of course, I was told that I banned her from the home... who knows what he said to her. But I have an incredible memory for dialog/conversation. At the flaying, I was told I was playing some sick mind game with her.)
I know that's long, but that is the story. There's more; it's absolutely ridiculous. Like I was told I was a narcissist because I talk too much (hello, Asperger's, ADD, OCD... a life long problem that I work really hard on because it bothers me perhaps even more than other people), and because I kept her after the service when she first started going to church. She had been flattered, but now she knows I was just being a narcissist.
Actually, she had attended for months and had run out immediately when the service was over for months. As someone who is uncomfortable with unstructured settings and prefers to have a role (like that of greeting new people), I took it upon myself to try to draw her in, make her feel comfortable, because she seemed to want to be a part of the community.
So most of the stuff she said about me to prove I was a narcissist ended up being Asperger's stuff. My being a greeter (to avoid mindless conversation of small talk with people I'd known for years at the church), not attending to body language, talking for a full 20 minutes about grout when I moved into my new home and then wanting to show it to her, etc. OMG! Just about every topic is fascinating to me, and I can share (as evidenced here) more than you'd ever care to know. Minutae... because, in part, I often cannot distinguish between what is important to understand and what is not. (I consulted an attorney not long ago and he said if I ever took the stand he'd have to spend a good deal of time rehearsing with me to limit my testimony.)
Also, when I became disabled, she and I weren't really friends (I just knew her from church; he was my friend); she just seemed like someone I knew from church. She didn't come to visit me (unless she attended a party at my home), though I was homebound most of the time, but for about two years into my disability and for about two years she would call me to talk for hours (2 to 3 hours) about her problems with her narcissistic mother and sometimes her fiance. I rarely had anything to say because I don't believe in talking about problems with a partner with anyone but my partner and a counselor (also, I thought I had a wonderful relationship with my partner). (So me the talker, talked for about 1/8 to 1/6 of the time during these calls only to have her later tell me that you're supposed to listen more than you talk... yeah.)
For me, someone who was isolated and no longer contributing to society, it felt like a job I was privileged to have and so I didn't mind it. She only started coming over to see me, like a friend, when my partner left, and then she acted like a true friend and allowed me to process the pain from all of that. It seemed then, about 5 or 6 years from when I first knew her, that our relationship started becoming something that appeared mutual, but it was less than a year later that she started having doubts (the fiance had to tell me that when he was cluing me into the fact that I was trying to break them up). She had misunderstood something I had said to her, as she was confiding in me over a problem with the fiance, and she had decided based on her misunderstanding that I didn't support their relationship... AND surprise, surprise, she never talked to me about it. (I guess I missed the cues that I was supposed to pick up on so I'd be able to say, "What's wrong _____? Did I say something wrong? Are you upset over something?")
Note: that my partner left me because I was disabled, and they both left disabled spouses for each other. I did not judge them ever because they both seemed to have significant and prolonged problems in their respective relationships.
I have never in 54 years of living seen anything like it (and I know they feel the same). And I've had plenty of people not get me before. Certainly, she probably doesn't understand why I didn't respond to her non-verbals when she was offering up verbal excuses. But the thing was... I WAS obtuse. I understand this. What I don't understand is how people can turn on someone who loves and cares for them and never approach the person to say, "This is the problem," never check out their perceptions, never check out the other person's motivations. I mean, it took me a long time to see her behavior as distancing. I thought it was just uncomfortableness associated with the fact that he was living in my home instead of hers. I thought she had every right to feel that way and needed time to sort through it.
SORRY... Thank you for the rest of your note. I think you offer good advice. I think NTs often wait until problems are somewhat big before they say something and it is likely I am just beginning to think, "Is something off?" LOL! Not good. I think I need to communicate that. Perhaps that will help them see that our timing could really be out of sync because of what I miss. So thanks for helping me see that.
I do have a problem with wanting people to be their own agents, doing things in their own time and wanting to respect that. (It's an important value.) That doesn't sound like a problem, but it is if I'm not even beginning to think "Oh this person is probably working on something" when what they are working on may have already grown into quite an issue for them. By the time, I was asking partners who wanted to avoid rather than confront "Is everything okay?", their thoughts, feelings, and resentments had probably been swept under a rug with a mound forming for some time. They may have had no idea where to begin by the time I asked the question. In this, you've helped me see how my "Is everything okay?" behavior may have seemed ludicrous or at least disingenuous to them.
So I do need to avoid avoiders (that's 1), tell people up front that I have Asperger's (2) and explain that and my other learning disabilities that can frustrate if you don't understand them and know that I am doing my best (3), and as I have realized, I need to be with a grown up (4), someone who is dedicated to growth, self reflection, sharing. I stay mindful of me; I just have trouble in my observations of others and in how others perceive me. I need someone who is willing to be self reflective and walk with me as I work to walk with her.
Sometimes I watch Bones and I see how Sealy is so patient with Temperance, not tuning out, not getting annoyed (all that often). That's not been my experience. If the person wasn't being patient, it was being hidden from me or I was being told how wrong I was all the time without me understanding what was wrong with my behavior.
You're very welcome. I'm glad I could be of help! This has been enlightening for me as well, actually; most NTs don't reflect on social rules and sometimes we're not even aware of them. As an idle thought, you'll probably have a lot of luck if you enter a relationship with a psychologist (I'm a psychology student, and very quickly we learn to reflect on even the most basic of things). I hope you find someone more understanding in the future. It's been a pleasure talking with you.
You've all got me thinking. All this new input of things I didn't think about before is really helping to round things out for me.
About immaturity in Aspies - Do you think that perhaps people say Aspies are "developmentally delayed" could be because until recently it was assumed that most Auties were male? They haven't been paying attention to girls at all. They have little idea what we're about.
In my extensive experience with men, I find them all to be rather immature, in general, whether they're autistic or NT. I have 4 brothers, 3 sons, 11 uncles, a bzillion male cousins and I ran with boys until they got hormones. They're almost all big, whiney babies and most couldn't survive without their mothers, wives, girlfriends or, heaven forbid, sisters. (except my sons. I taught them survival skills like laundry, cleaning and food prep. because I was sick of the notion that just because I didn't have a penis I should be responsible for all these things for all male-kind.)
The 7 aspie guys I know are even worse - all mama's boys. The wives of the two who weren't afraid to talk to girls (like that...) are miserable because of their mothers-in-law (who are tragically stuck in the job of managing their child because no one else can.)
I would call these men immature in a heartbeat. They expect everything to go the way they've imagined it and throw tantrums when it doesn't. They whine about the silliest things and blame everything on anyone else. Male entitlement issues run high with them as well - except where I am concerned... I won't take their crap. 5 of them I've known since Kindergarten and looking back, they always seemed immature - which is why they hung out in Chess club where it was safe.
Does this make sense to anybody?
Well I know that I'm immature in some areas but in other areas I'm more mature then others in my age. My emotions and reactions on stuff are very childish, some how ppl tend to think that's cute.
But then I'm considered mature when it comes to knowledge and how I am and think about others. But I've always thought of others before myself and I can't be happy if those around isn't happy and I have always (well for as long as I can remember) thought that all humans (and animals and plants etc) are "one", that we are all conected and therefore we should treat others with love and respect. I don't think I've ever felt hate.
But this view also make me unable to say no and very afraid of hurting others or making them angry.
And learning from my mistakes, well that one is difficult.
Loving myself, I think that's impossible.
When I look over that list, I know I have made significant headway in all areas, though I am currently struggling with the issue of trust after a number of baseball bats upside the head in my personal relationships (and some might argue that I'm not familiar with humility by virtue of my assertion).
After years of not having a diagnosis, like many diagnosed later in life....
I can NOW see how Asperger's made "making good judgments" more difficult for me.
I NOW understand why I have difficulty with balancing heart with principle (note that I don't say head because for me it is not all logic... principle is very important to me), and this issue has interfered with my ability to "know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, and know when to run."
As for logic, I've known for some time that I don't trust my intuition (but not why I don't trust it) and that relying on logic alone is not a good formula for my success, but NOW I can see why I don't trust my intuition, as my intuition is seriously hampered by processing difficulties.
I NOW understand that I would like to take more risks in social situations rather than try to limit my exposure to unstructured environments (and that my talking is not a character flaw but something I can manage with the help of others).
I may look like I am Mr. Spock imperturbable; however, I have traversed the spectrum of response from one end (irrational, fall apart over small things) to the other (equanimity) to be able to calmly interact with others in conflict about tough issues. To pull this off, does not mean that I don't feel, though my facial expressions might convey otherwise to NTs. Also my wishing people were more logical has more to do with my perception that NTs seem to rely so heavily on their gut that they often "make an ass out of you and me" with their willingness to assume than with my not understanding normal human emotion.
All in all, I feel good about who I am.
And I feel blind.
Just like my distraction blindness that could have me miss a milk carton sitting out on a counter in a messy house (so that the milk would spoil), I am often blind to what people are doing and that can spoil relationships. I am more often than not blind to why people are doing what they are doing. Because of theory of mind issues and my having to rely on what people say (because I miss physical cues or misinterpret them), once I have established who someone is (what motivates them, which is mostly based on what they've told me about themselves and that might have little to do with their truth), I have difficulty making sense of data that comes in that is in conflict with their verbal representation. I am not devoid, however, of putting myself in someone else's shoes, particularly when witnessing two other people interacting (though I often don't recognize the impact I have on others be cause I don't know what my special brand of weirdness looks like or recognize the ways in which I act differently from others). I have been nearly devoid of reading nefariousness into other people's actions unless it is blatant--meaning, they tell me to my face--because I have learned that I never really picked up a whole lot by being suspicious (NOW I understand I have to develop discernment skills that fit my particular challenges in that area).
So I can't read body language, I have difficulty with other people's intent. I look like I am making bad judgments to others on a personal level because I am lacking in data that other people get. I think, given what I thought I knew, I was making very good judgments. (Meanwhile, I'm capable of making very good judgments when it comes to business and have been valued for my insights about human nature in general.)
When someone is literally blind and cannot read someone else's body language, we don't say that person is immature. If they use a cane or service dog to get around, we wouldn't say they were immature (just as I might need to have a trusted NT friend I can process observations I've made to get help making sense of others).
NOW, I that I know what my challenge is (thank goodness for the baseball bats that opened my and my psychologist's eyes), I will do what it takes to do as much as I can to face my challenges to the extent that I am able (and all I can do is all I can do and no more... I am not super human)... all while still loving myself, accepting myself, and being my authentic self.
I know plenty of NTs who have trouble facing hard truths about themselves, accepting responsibility (e.g., are unable to admit a mistake), who are mired in childhood trauma dramas, who can't look in the mirror, who are people pleasers, who blame others for their problems, who would rather run than confront the pain of growth. We all know people who come off as really together and responsible, but go home and rage at their spouses, beat their kids, avoid conflict, etc. And yet we're immature socially? We're immature when it seems like most around us avoid being honest... at least it seems that way to me in my community. (I live in the South and have enjoyed most northern transplants whom seem to have been raised in a "what you see is what you get" culture. I think the social rules of the south are more elusive and harder to spot for us Aspie's.... My experience is that many people who are from the north have trouble adjusting to the southern way when transplanted. I could be wrong, but that's my impression.)
It seems to me that maturity is a mixed bag. We all have areas where we need to grow and advance our skill sets and all of us--people with Asperger's and NTs--will have different levels of challenges to face when it comes to that. (From background to temperament to being differently wired. Indeed, given the bullying and lack of understanding, it may be that we have an additional layering of background to work through compared to most NTs.)
What I don't see is being judged immature when our challenges have more to do to our being differently wired. Particularly when some ways in which we are wired (e.g., honesty as a generalization) are pretty darn nice and might benefit NTs. But why judge me socially immature because I didn't get the pamphlet on how to flirt at birth like NTs or how to do water cooler talk? It's not like I got the diagram and chose to stamp my foot petulantly and ignore it. It's not like I'm trying to fail socially. For those of us who are fish out of water, much of the social world appears to be complicated game playing. But the fish in the water, the fish in the game, learn the rules the way fish know how to swim and so judge our out of the water ineptness as social immaturity.
~~~ Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut