NT family
Hi Karen,
I'm excited about the NT section of the forum. I'm looking forward to the dialogue (and learning more) as it relates to how NT's view the world. I must admit that I am oftentimes surprised, confused, humored, and fascinated by the NT thought process as well as your social inclinations.
Thank you for taking the lead and assisting with this area of the forum!
You are very welcome Sharon! I hope I can help although sometimes the NT thought process is just as confusing for us NTs! Sorry I haven't been on more than sporadically lately!
Question for Karen..... I have been told my uncomfortableness around people sometime comes off as snobiness or unfriendliness, which in turn, colors that persons perception of me, and creates a whole chain of reactions resulting in "no relationship". Thoughts?
My question for NT's is how do you percieve a person that isn't good with eye contact? My husband says it is rude. I tell him that I can hear him with my ears. I don't hear with my eyes, so I do not need to look at him.
Elle: I think that it's true that a lot of NTs place a high premium on eye contact. Many do perceive people who don't make eye contact as unfriendly or snobby or sometimes just shy. In my line of work and through other people in my life I have also learned that people from different cultural backgrounds also don't make eye contact in particular situations, for example, as a sign of deference or respect to someone older or of a different gender. Keep in mind that if someone is interested in knowing you better they will usually make an effort to start or continue a conversation with you and not just judge you on a first impression. Try your best to be yourself in the moment, it's better that people get to know you for who you are.
Genisa: I think the above applies in part to your question too. NTs do sometimes also perceive no eye contact as rude. Sometimes we think it means you are not paying attention or not listening even if you actually are. Maybe you could ask if there is a different way you can respond to him that doesn't necessarily require direct eye contact. I think this is important in an intimate relationship- I personally think it's a myth that people on the spectrum are "bad at communicating" - I think it's a matter of finding a way that is comfortable to communicate that works for both people. In any relationship there needs to be effort to understand and be understood.
Where do I look when I'm supposed to look at a person when they're talking to me? I remember one time I was with my grandmother and I must have been about 4yrs old. I either got "it's rude to stare" or "look at people when they're talking to you". So. Where do I look??
Generally NT people expect that you will look at them when you are speaking to each other or they are speaking to you. Often times it is in the eye but if that is too difficult then maybe somewhere above or below the eyes. They also expect that you will not continue to look at them when the conversation has ended. At that point you can look elsewhere but then if conversation begins again they want you to look at them again. NT people often feel that if the other person is looking at them during conversation then the other person is listening or paying attention. One thing that can work - and I think this has worked for my paratner Lori - is if there is someone in your life with whom you can truly be yourself, i.e. where you don't have to try and remember all these things you are "supposed" to do around NTs, it can give you a break to be around that person sometimes. If there is not such a person then maybe trying to do something during that day or evening that is easier on your brain will help if you are overloaded by trying to conform to social etiquette.
Hey Karen,
I am not sure how to word this, so bear with me if this falls short of making sense! I try my level best to be honest and direct, yet big hearted and empathetic with people. I really do. But I have a habit of letting people know when I've caught them contradicint themselves. This usually happens when I'm in a debate or argument where there are two sides to the story - me on one side, another person on the other. I'm slowly discovering NTs hate this. But rather than accepting they have been caught in a quandry, the NTs typically get upset and blame the entire debate/argument, etc. on me. Instead of "Gee, I did say that. Well, rethinking the situation, I guess you are right" or "I didn't mean to say... what I really meant was..." the NT usually finds a way to turn the tables on me claiming I push too hard, or won't give up an argument or that I'm just plain crazy (yep, was just called that by a so called friend). Here's my ? In the land of NT, is it best to pretend you didn't catch someone in a logic trap or a bald faced lie? What's an Aspie with a bullet proof memory for detail do when they note another person is flip flopping or not taking responsibility for their side of an argument?
This is a great question. When I read it I had to laugh to myself - not at you or your question but really at myself because I recognize myself as the NT in this story. I have definitely been on the NT side of this equation before. Here's my opinion: many times NT people - myself included - like to debate or argue our point of view even if it sometimes defies logic as in this situation. If someone points out exactly what I said and proves me to be wrong using my own words then I may feel embarrassed which may then lead me to get angry to cover up my embarrassment. Plus I want to be "right" just as much as the other person. In my experience, even if we go back over who exactly said what I start to get confused and frustrated and this may also make me angry.
For the sake of a friendship, it may be more important to let it go than to have to be right even if you are - if that makes any sense. So if you notice your friend starting to get upset you can choose to back off and "agree to disagree." My caveat is that some principles, values, etc. are ones that you may find worth fighting for or arguing for even if it costs a friendship - so basically it's up to decide what is most important to you given the particular situation. It's hard when someone ends up blaming you for something like this - or even calling you "crazy" - you're not - you are just trying to figure out "the rules" which are nonsensical and ever-changing.
I think lies are a different story. There are so many situations where these can come up that it's hard to have a global answer. So much of NT behavior - in my view - is ruled by emotion or intention and not necessarily facts and logic - and by the way I don't agree that people on the spectrum have no emotion. I'm just saying that for many NT's the emotional part can sometimes be the instant default that takes over in a situation. It also depends on how much harm the lie is causing you personally. NTs lie constantly in social situations for so many reasons: to be deceptive, to make someone feel better, to cover up for someone else, to hide something for both good or bad intentioned reasons and many many more. If you know someone is lying to you - depending on who the person is to you in your life you may choose to ignore it or confront it or ask about it.
Liane
I have the same problem - in merely pointing out a factual error or contradiction I'm not even questioning intent to deceive however I get in return defensive behaviour and comments like 'Oh so you are accusing me of lying, I resent that etc'
I have learnt to hold my tongue but every now and then I have to point something out. I don't like how this often gets reframed as pedantic Aspiness or nit picking.
Karen
I appreciate your perspective.
Liane,
I understand what you are saying and is makes me angry when I catch the other person lying to me. If it is a friend I really like, then I try to ignore it. My trust in them is no longer the same anymore through. My problem is that I don't know how to bring up the topic of them contradicting themselves.
Genisa - maybe you could try bringing it up at a time that is different from the one when you are arguing or debating. For example you could say something like, "I sometimes get confused about how you respond when we are on opposite sides of a debate or argument. When it seems to me that you have contradicted yourself and I point this out, you become angry. I want us to be able to debate an issue without having this happen - can you help me figure this out?"
I know it is not an easy thing to do and I wish you well if you try it.
Karen
I have a question and that is: "How do I reassure my NT friends that I care about them as much as they care about me?"
I do care about them very much. I see much more about us that is similar than is dissimilar. The main difference is that I need more alone time and that I just can't do the "chat everyday on the phone" thing. And having the same conversations over and over again is difficult for me. It can bug me if we talk over something really important to both of us and then they forget a whole bunch of it, or seem to, and then ask me to go over it again and again and again.
If the subject is painful for me, then it's like reliving the nightmare of it over and over. I will carry that stress home, and because I care for a child who has some very difficult issues, I can't afford to do that.
I know part of this is the ritual of friendship. I get that. Sometimes people talk to make noise because it's something to do. I'm just not good at it. I find myself wanting to go home and have more alone time again to recover.
I also have members of my family and friends who are more severely AS than I am, and I find myself having the same gripes about them that my NT friends have about me. So I do get it. I'm just not sure what to do about calming the waters.
Don't you just hate not knowing the secret code of white lies, saracasam, inuendo, anger, frustration- blah blah blah. I very much appreciate Karen's answer and I hope it helps you ladies who share my confusion/sadness, as much as it helped me. "Ask an NT" will be one of my favorite forum entities. Karen- this is the first time anyone has answered my question in a way I can understand. Thanks for your honesty!!!
Califmom: I think one of the best, most genuine things you can do is to be honest with your friends. Let them know that you are someone who doesn't like to talk on the phone every day and need a good amount of time for yourself - that this is how you take care of yourself. I hope that they would understand your need for this, especially as you are a parent. You can tell them that this doesn't mean you care about them any less and that if you are able to do these things you will have more energy to be with or talk with them when you are able to do so. Many NTs also don't like to talk on the phone a lot or every day - I am one of those people. I let my answering maching pick up messages but don't always answer or call back right away. I hope this is helpful and that it works if you try it!
Liane: I am very happy to help in any way I can and thank you for your kind words!
FYI: In answer to a question from Karen, all of the reply buttons add the reply to the end of the thread. The individual buttons on each comment are there so that you can see the comment you are replying to while you are replying.
Karen, I appreciate your response very much. Thank you.
I am hurting a great deal over the loss of a dear friend recently. She was nagging me to death about something we disagreed about, and with encouragement from my therapist, I told her to take a hike. For someone who is loyal to the ends of the earth, this was very hard.
I'm just popping in for my daily rounds - this is one of my favorite rooms in the forum! I am completely amazed & bewildered by the NT thought process. Karen you rOcK! 
Hee hee - often, so am I Sharon!
Califmom: That must have been a very hard thing for you to do, to let your friend go. It takes a brave person to make that difficult decision.
Hi, Karen. I've got a question. How does a spectumite know when an NT person wants a truthful answer? I've learned the hard way that the answer to 'Do I look fat in this?' is always 'No', but it seems to me that there are lots other traps like this out there.
Jacoby, one of my "traps" is to answer the "How are ya doing?" question truthfully.
I'm told the proper response is "fine, fine."
Karen, it was like tearing my heart out and stomping on it. I'm still reeling. But this shall pass. Thank you for your kind words.
Hi Runawayspacedog - that is a really good and really tough question. The particular example you cite is definitely not limited to NT/Spectrumite relationships (in this case I am including friendship, family, etc not limited to romantic ones). In other words, take any random NT and he/she is just as likely to be confused by this and similar questions. Yet I believe that there is an extra layer to having to navigate this along with other traps, as you say,when it comes to those on the spectrum.
In my view, there are a couple of ways of going about it. One is trial and error. Another is to say "no" if you really mean "no" and if you don't, to try your best to avoid hurting the other person's feelings. This can be sticky for people on the spectrum because in my limited experience (and apologies for the gross generalization), spectrumites can become very uncomfortable with lying. I am not placing a value judgment on whether that's good or bad - only that NTs tend to have numerous reasons or justifications for why they may lie, some of which are to avoid hurting others, and it is a learned default which spectrumites don't necessarily have.
I don't mean to imply this is an easy thing to do and I know my answer was a little simplistic. When it comes to self-esteem, body image, etc., everyone has their own "stuff" about it and you can't be expected to know what those things are for each person. However if there are some people you know better than others, it may make it easier to be more honest with less consequences.
Something to keep in mind is that if someone is asking you that or a similar questions, it is often because they are feeling vulnerable or insecure about themselves. It may be helpful to think of how you might want someone to reassure you if you were feeling that way and respond accordingly.
Any other NTs around that would like to chime in here?
Sorry for being late to the thread! Hopefully what I am about to write makes some level of sense. If not, best to ignore me ;)
Being NT and given my own day to day interactions, the simple truth (from my perspective at least) is that really, no rules will govern every situation. It really comes down to whomever is involved and what the situation is.
When it comes to questions like "how are you doing", for example, if it is a close friend or family member, than answering the question as true as possible makes perfect sense. People you are less familiar with, you might just want to say things are fine, first because if it is something personal that is bothering you, and you don't know the person well, you never know to whom such information may get repreated to. I've seen people speak freely in cases like this, only for the things they said to come back to others involved and make the situation worse.
Assuming that the other person is trust worthy however, the problem may simply be that the person does not know you enough to know what to do or how to react. People whom you know and trust likely know what might help or at least be a comfort to you during a bad time: the can and will help you the best they can. People who you might know only slightly might feel at a loss as to what to do to help, yet feel they should help in someway. It can be slightly confusing for that person as they may feel at a loss.
Of course, if it is just gneral frustrations of something, that is an entirely different issue. For example: if someone asked how I was, I am probably well within right to say "a little frustrated given that my computer died, etc." I tend to find most people are fine with minor annoyances (we all get frusted with those time to time). It's when things are big that it gets complicated.
Thanks David, I really like how you explained this. Great to have another NT answering some of these too! Was this helpful to people on the spectrum?
Yes, very. Thank you, David.
Thank you! Happy to help :)
Hey this NT topic is a great idea!!!! Karen (and also David), you have done a splendid job! I like the way you explain things. You are very considered and pragmatic about how to help our friends on the spectrum.
I will try to come around some more. because, of course, I have many things to say about what has been said and will be more than happy to try helping.
That being said I have a comment about Runawayspacedog's question (post #22) and Karen and David's answers. One thing that Karen has touched on since the beginning is that the weight of NT's emotions and sense of self worth can overcome the weight of the truth or facts of what is being said. Honesty and being straight forward can hurt people's feelings. That is why people lie or don't open-up completely. An NT person will hesitate to let a woman know she has a large bottom, because the truth might be too hard for her to deal with. You might think well it's the truth so, why hide it.
As a scientist I developed a way of treating topics very objectively and then have realized to what extend people can be sensitive, or biased when dealing with facts... It's for a reason. They can't deal with it.
As a fairly general rule, you can tell yourself that trust doesn't always matter. People's intention aren't always to seek the truth. It's okay if something isn't right, or people have missed something or have a flaw. It may be besides the point.
When people argue about something, they might not be aware of their flaw, but their intentions is that they may seek something else than what is really said (most often they want to be understood). I know it can be a nightmare to figure out. NT can face these issues as well. For instance, lots of NT men face the issue of women having an emotional breakdown about something between them. then the whole purpose of a discussion for the woman is not to solve the problem but to be reassured and supported emotionally by the men. We, men, have to learn this. Men tend to focus on the problem...
One way to discover what people really want is to let them know you respect them and that you can't guess what they need, so they should let you know, and so you can try responding in an appropriate way. Many NT people too often make the wrong assumptions that other people can, or should, guess what they want. They need to be reminded that in order for a communication to succeed, they need to be as explicit as needed.
P.S. RE eyes. true people think you may be not interested in what they are saying (or them) if you don't look at them in the eyes. You can try to give a thorough look and a big smile from time to time, which will be well appreciated, and then look away. When you look away, then, provide plenty of back channeling like "mhm", "yes", "yeah", etc. this signals you are listening and following the discussion. You can also let people know you are uncomfortable looking in the eyes (with people you are interacting frequently), or wear sun glasses, LOL.
Hi sweetie :)
-Lori