NT's & the Art of Manipulation ~ Spare Savvy Please!
Hi Karen:
I'd really like to get some input on the strategies of NT's & the art of manipulation. First, I believe manipulations can be both positive as well as negative.
As a parent, I am constantly challenged to sharpen my skills of parental manipulation when guiding my children toward outcomes & decision making while they are still learning.
However, I have never been able to completely adjust to the scandalous manipulations of other people. In fact, I find that this is where I am typically at my most vulnerable, and to make things worse, it's like I have a huge sign over my head that says, "push over."
As hard as I try, I can never seem to completely ward off the attempts of scandals. Though I have become rather successful (now that I'm 45) at severing ties immediately upon the revelation of another's manipulations, I nonetheless can not seem to figure out who these people are *initially.*
This is very distressful to me as I have a natural inclination to give others the benefit of the doubt. (most especially individuals in a leadership role) > So Karen, how can I hone in on that NT savvy & radar? I'm tired of feeling the exhaustion from the stressful fallout which follows these sagas. Got some savvy to spare?
"I’d like to acknowledge though, that it isn’t that simple – for example, people have talked about friends they have who contradict themselves during arguments and debates but are still friends."
I'd like to ask you about this, Karen.
But first, I'd like to thank you very much for the time and energy you've put into responding here. Ok, enough of the formalities
.
How do NT's deal with the discrepancies between contradicting stories during debates etc and still remain friends? Do they somehow overlook these? Or is this something that is ignored in favour of the bigger picture?
I suspect you're going to tell me: "It depends". Isn't there a guidebook or something?
Sharon,
Is there any way you can lose the sign on your forehead? I discovered that I had the same sign and I can tell you, that really pi**ed me off. I just got so sick and tired of the crap that I made sure it was well hidden.
The problem is that I have to wear this 'suit of armor' that NT's seem to have naturally when I go outside. It's exhausting but less tiring then dealing with the fall-out. I just assume that manipulation is going to happen and be on the look-out.
Hi Marian,
You are very welcome, I'm happy to try and help demystify some of our strange NT ways! You are right - there should be a guidbook but of course the phrase "it depends" would be all over it 
This came up in an earlier post and I am linking the original question (and my answer underneath) here:
http://autismwomensnetwork.org/forum/nt-family#comment-717
Does this answer your question?
- K
It answers my question mostly :) Would I be correct in assuming that NT's just don't even bother to be concerned about the contradictions/lies they tell in social situations?
How can you trust an NT if they constantly lie? Is trust dependent on the over-all picture of the relationship? I find this to be quite confusing when interacting.
Please don't be offended at my direct questions about NT's lying/trust. It's not directed at you personally. I've just been really curious. I also would appreciate any strategies you might offer for handling this. As in: when you meet up with someone and you uncover a lie, just keep it tucked away for possible future reference.
Hi Marian,
No offense taken – these are great and legitimate questions. Regarding NTs not being concerned about contradictions and lies, I’d have to say that often NTs don’t always consider themselves to be lying. As NTs, we have somehow learned, either directly or indirectly, how to navigate certain social situations. We often know when to lie because what is being required of us is not the actual truth per se, but what the other party expects to hear. For example, and again, this is something I have heard people on the spectrum talk about, if someone asks me how I’m doing, depending on who the other person is and the particular situation, I know what the other person wants to hear is “I’m fine, or I’m good” or something similar.
The higher-ups at my workplace, the grocery store clerk, sometimes certain people in my life, don’t want to hear: “Actually I’m having a shitty day, the cat threw up on my shoes and my mother is in the hospital.” These people are expecting a short, cursory answer. Am I lying? Absolutely. Has it harmed anyone that I’ve told this lie? I don’t think so. And I'm comfortable with it because it's been ingrained, it's like a reflex. I don't think most people on the spectrum have this reflex - and so it feels uncomfortable and unnatural.
I don't think it's correct that all NTs are never concerned about contradictions and lies. Even though in the example above, I answer that way because it's expected and a social convention, I (and other NTs I know) sometimes feel resentful that it's not okay to just say how we are really feeling at the time. Many NTs also dislike certain social norms and conventions and push back against them.
It's important to keep in mind that generally, NTs live in a world of context and subtext. So much of how we react to a situation is dependent upon the specifics of it. The subtext is what we perceive to be the "right" response. So in the situation above, the context may be that I am talking to someone where the conversation is expected to be on a superficial level. The subtext is: keep your answer short and neutral. Whereas if the context is that a good friend, my partner or a close family member is asking the question, the subtext is: tell me how you are really doing.
The one thing I continue to come back to with this issue is intention. NT social interactions are often based on a perceived intention along with the context and subtext. It IS confusing. So confusing in fact that I'm somewhat at a loss for words to explain it better which I realize is not very helpful!
Yes, I do absolutely think that trust is dependent on the overall quality of the relationship, as you said. Do you perceive that an NT is lying to purposely harm you, or are they trying not to hurt your feelings, are they trying to avoid you? What I find to be such a great quality of people on the spectrum, that is, just being straightforward without all the subtext blah de blah, is very difficult for NTs because, as I've mentioned, we are taught all our lives to do the opposite. It can often mean that people on the spectrum are put in the uncomfortable position of not only trying to figure out the NT world, but also making themselves potentially even more vulnerable by having to educate NTs about why truthfulness and being up front and straightforward may be an essential necessity for a friendship to flourish.
As far as the "uncovering a lie" goes, (here comes my favorite disclaimer) it depends. Do you have an idea about the intention of the lie? Is there harm being caused by the lie? Does it actually make more sense to call the person out on the lie or is it something that is not so important in the bigger picture? I think tucking it away for future reference can sometimes be helpful, sometimes harmful. The helpful part may be something like "Wow this person lied before in a similar situation but I think they may have been just trying to make me feel better." The harmful part may be that you collect months worth of lies and by extension, possibly resentment about them,then bring them out all at once. What I mean is, it is often better to communicate there is a problem earlier on then letting things build up to the point where you are so angry that the relationship is too damaged to be repaired.
I know that NTs consistently say things that people on the spectrum perceive as lies, whereas NTs don't. I don't think that makes all NTs untrustworthy, but it most certainly can make navigating friendships and social situations with them confusing and difficult. It's hard to generalize since there are so very many situations with their own specific nuances. As far as strategies, asking for clarification, seeing and observing a person in a variety of situations, trying to get to know the person more will give you more information to decide whether or not you will try to trust this person.
Just as you can't generalize people on the spectrum, you can't generalize NTs either. The best thing you can do is to judge people on their individual attributes.
Karen,
I wonder if you could comment on the following phenomenon that I've seen in various permutations in the NT world.
Okay, you've got two people who have a conflict of sorts. Perhaps one person doesn't even realize it. That isn't required. The other person downplays it. No, no, everything's fine.
The second person, who said everything's fine, goes to third person and unleashes anxiety about the perceived conflict. The third person listens, advises and/or intervenes. The third person might also escalate things by suggesting the perceived conflict is a bigger deal than the second person might have been inclined to consider it. (My therapist calls this "enabling.") This is the form I see in my extended family.
Sometimes the third person will confront the first person, who is often baffled. "Wow, why didn't X come to me directly? I don't get it. Why did X tell me everything is fine?" The reporting might be accurate. It might be well intentioned or it might be something highly manufactured by that point.
Sometimes no reporting or confrontation occurs. The third person uses the situation as political capital and rewards the second person with affection or power or some privilege in return for their confidence. The first person might not realize any of this is happening until much later on. This is the form I often saw in corporate settings.
I have seen these dynamics at work just about everywhere. My therapist calls it "indirect communication."
The question is why. It often doesn't end well. It tends to make people more upset. It seems terribly inefficient. But clearly this serves some evolutionary purpose. It must.
I had a friend call me months ago and try to complain at length about another friend. I sensed that in a weird way this might be intended as an opportunity for me to fill a void, to compete for this friend's affection. I'd seen this often when I was a kid.
However, I felt sick to my stomach as I couldn't help feeling my friend should resolve her conflicts directly with her other friend. I let her know how much I cared and shared my confidence they would resolve things between them with direct communication, which is what wound up happening. While I was proud of myself for not getting caught in that trap, I soon discovered that the friend who had called me felt a bit hurt and confused that I hadn't responded the way she expected that I would. She patched things up with the other friend, but she and I drifted apart afterward.
Can't win, it seems.
Califmom,
I think the answer to your question depends on so many variables, most especially the particular individuals involved. What can be most helpful is if Person 2 tells Person 3 up front that they are just looking to vent or talk about what happened with Person 1 and that they just want support. Or they are looking for feedback or they want Person 3 to intervene with Person 1. If this doesn’t happen, which it often does not, then perhaps Person 3 could ask Person 2 – how can I be of help to you here? Did you just want to vent about it and have me listen or do you want my opinion? I agree that if Person 3 just goes ahead and intervenes, it can be very damaging. People do this for a variety of reasons – like you said, political or personal gain or some other hidden reason. I agree that if person 3 just goes ahead and intervenes then there is indeed indirect communication which is not ideal. In my opinion, the onus is on Person 3 to try and understand, by asking Person 2 directly, what sort of feedback or intervention, if any, is desired.
In the example with your friend – it sounds like you as Person 3 did clearly communicate your emotional support and gave sound advice. Did you get a sense from Person 2 about why she was hurt and confused or how she would have wished you’d have responded? I’m not trying to place blame on you here – you may have indeed asked Person 2 and for whatever reason she was not able or willing to tell you what you had done that was hurtful. It’s true that sometimes we “can’t win,” but it’s also true that sometimes through continued direct communication, to the best of our abilities, we can find out more about what another person is thinking and feeling and it can bring us closer. I don’t want to minimize your sense of pain and loss with this person but in general, I prefer to say “You win some, you lose some.” I think you acted with integrity here and if others can’t respond in kind, they are less deserving of your good friendship.
Thank you, Karen. What you write makes a lot of sense. I think person 3 has a lot of responsibility either to be a part of the solution or to deflect it back in such a way that empowers person 2 to be direct with person 1. So I agree with you there.
I think what happened with my friend is that I am very similar to the friend she was complaining about. Both of us have AS. I think I did okay in retrospect. Especially considering my friend was extremely upset and escalating to the point where she was beginning to say things that would be a problem for me. About AS. About how burdensome it is for her to be tasked with caring about people like us ...
You could spread it, it got so thick. Well, she was honest. At least I can say that about her.
Perhaps we just passed the point of no return with one another. She said stuff she couldn't unsay, and I let her know I wasn't a receptacle for that kind of stuff.
I accept that the friendship had to end. She was burned out. I was in the process of burning out. It's better for me. I know it. I just feel pretty jaded. It's like I have to be so careful with everyone.
Hi Karen!
Thanks for the detailed and clear response; I appreciate the effort.
I've decided that perhaps a poem is in order here. Haven't written much but here goes:
In the land of NT, underneath bramble and tree
lies the bane of nearly every Aspie.
In lieu of arms, the critter becharms
with a slew of contradictions.
Instead of a head, it would rather be lead
by some friends called "It depends."
It's favourite delight in a subtext of night
was to say, It's all shades of grey.
That was really bad poetry but kinda cute.
As bad as it was, I think it sums up my experience of NT interaction.
You're right that spectrumites often don't have this sense of being comfortable with adjusting responses to fit what is 'expected'. For me, I never understood there was relating on these different levels but I have figured out that being mostly comfortable in my own skin and using humor gets me by.
You mentioned that NT interaction is often based on perceived intentions as well as context and subtext. Perceived intentions means what you've assessed is the other person's intent based on body language, eye contact, how words are spoken and what words are used. The context is the situation at hand, including where you are, who you are with and what is happening at the moment. Subtext would be the underlying purpose of the interaction, how well you know the person and what you would like to happen next and what is 'supposed' to happen. Have I got any of that right?
I think the perception of intention issue probably stymies a lot of aspies/autistics as reading body language or guessing intent is often a complete mystery. I just see a human in front of me when I meet people. I don't have a clue about 'reading' them... Let me tell you the troubles I've seen...
My strategy for dealing with interaction is to be friendly but wary. Joke around. Talk about nothing of real substance. Watch out for sharp edges. Make sure I'm not working harder than the other person or put myself in a position to be taken advantage of. Not exactly the most relaxing of endeavors, if I do say so myself.
I'm going to have to let your information about 'lying' and figuring out intent when people do lie to simmer and percolate. Grey areas and I are not exactly good friends but we keep on.
Marian,
Your poem is wonderful, I love it and I'm so glad you posted it 
Yes you got it about what I was saying about context/subtext and intention. Keep in mind that NTs also can have a difficult time with intention too - although admittedly easier than many on the spectrum - which is why I find it hard to explain clearly, not to mention understand! It's something like: social convention or social "nicety" dictates that you start on the superficial level with people and move deeper from there. But it can and does often feel like a "game" as my partner puts it, to figure out how, when,and with whom to move to that deeper level - a game with no clear, and yes, often contradictory rules.
Your strategies seem like good ones that have worked for you- even though I hear from you as well as others how stressful and exhausting this can be. Regarding the difficulty adjusting to what's expected, well how can one adjust if one doesn't even KNOW what's expected? This is the part of me that becomes stymied with trying to recommend strategies. We are not taught at all to be open and honest with one another as humans and people on the spectrum (and some who are not) bump up against this all the time.
Another disclaimer is that I don't want to come across as defensive on behalf of NTs by constantly mentioning that "not all NTs think or do this or that." My intention (since we are talking about them) is to let people on the spectrum know that there can be some commonality in being perplexed about why the social world is the way it is.
Thank you, Karen.
Maybe I'll go straight to publishing...:)
I think there's something important safety-wise regarding the social convention of starting off slowly in that it gives one the chance to assess the possibilities regarding this person. Jumping in leaves you open to being taken advantage of. Not to mention that if you figure out that maybe if you dislike/don't have anything in common with this person, you can back out more gracefully than if you'd jumped right in.
The concept of a game without rules is not a comforting thought to a lot of aspies; it's sort of akin to leaping off a building wondering if you have a parachute and whether it's going to work! I understand what you're saying about some NT's not getting the cues; I suppose this may, in part, be how some people (particularly women) get caught up in abusive relationships.
Thanks for trying to wrap your mind around the strategies issue; I can see where the frustration lies. Hard to recommend something if the 'rules' such as they are, keep changing or become invisible.
I didn't feel that you were defensive at all. It's good to know that some NT's also face these challenges because then I don't feel quite as freakish as I usually do. Seriously though, we are all people first and everyone's got special needs; it's just that some hide it better than others. Oh man, now I think I'm a philosopher and a poet...what's next?! I know! Rocker mom! I'm off to play my eelectric geetar!
Wow! What an awesome conversation going on here.
Karen how do you do it? The NT of the year award truly belongs to you ~ thank you for your well thought out answers, and I understand what you mean by "making the strategies work for you." This is what I am taking away from all of this for sure.
Marion, I did lose the sign on my forehead a long time ago. I was referring to the "feeling I get as though I have a sign on my forehead" and this is soooo frustrating, you know?
I appreciate that I am definitely sharpening my savvy skills on an ongoing basis. When I compare where I am now with respect to the vulnerabilities I experienced 10 years ago - well, I am proud to say I can do the *happy dance*...
I suppose my frustration still lies in the reality that I must accept c-o-m-p-l-e-t-e-l-y that I truly do have a unique thought process & it may sometimes render me a bit more vulnerable.
However, I am a firm believer that "information is knowledge & knowledge is power." I consider myself empowered as long as I continue gaining knowledge in these areas.
Thank you for all the great comments on this thread. They are extremely helpful for sure.
Thanks so much Sharon and everyone who has been writing - I think these are great dialogues to have together! 
Hi Sharon,
Thanks Karen for the wonderful delicate thoughtful responses. I will be answering more directly, if you don't mind.
I liked what Karen told you, Sharon. I think there is definitively possible sign of contradictions, but often this happens between emotional and content level. So it's not always possible to see it. Also some manipulators are completely flawless in their moves.Also, some manipulators are really good at observing other's reaction and afterwards at finding ways to get these. so they will use strategies to get you the way they want.
I also agree that if you feel something is wrong, than, it means your trust warning light goes on. That means the other person made you uncomfortable. and it is good to pull away and try to understand. Giving the benefit of the doubt if giving a green light to the other person to continue. I would say you should not yield grounds. Rather i would try to get some clarifications about the other person's intentions. Then if you know the person didn't mean to do something wrong, than it's different than if you realize the person did it purposefully.
About the leadership role. Here again, some people use their authority or leadership role and take advantage of other's submission. I think, as adult, there should be little room for this kind of behaviors. As a general rule, it's not because someone is a leader that they can do whatever they please with you. The same goes for when you admire someone. The same goes for a man and a woman. As a woman, you cant just put yourself under the man's will. It starts by how you address to the man, and how you put your boundaries and how you set your expectations (the worst is when you communicate in all you are saying and your behaviors: "please take care of me, you are my man, I adore you, I want to make you happy" and there is nothing in return) you open doors for him to take advantage of you.
I'm not saying that is what you would do. It's important to express verbally and to behave in coherence with our boundaries, and it's important to also react when boundaries are not respected. Someone who is manipulative in a bad way will try to take advantage of the boundaries.. and will even try to break them just because they want the upper hand. You can try to trick them by putting false boundaries that are safe for you if they are broken (I just came with that idea). It can be an indicator of how the person respect your boundaries.
There is a link between our attitude and the opportunity to be manipulated. Manipulators don't like people who don't let them manipulate. Giving trust to people without testing their interest is opening doors to being taken advantage of.
I guess there are manipulator who have some ethics and never get caught, because they know what they can do or can't do. You can probably live with them, they don't hurt.
I'm jumping into this way late, I realize. This has been a terrific, helpful discussion for me because I've also been taken advantage of by manipulative people. I'm 60YO, and I guess it's just been a half century of life's experiences that's taught me to be wary. It's taught me what kind of behavior to look out for, and lots of times I couldn't have told you exactly what raised red flags with me, but they were raised nonetheless. As Karen suggested, I'm slow to reveal things about myself to people until I've come to know them. I've found that I'm not good at spotting a manipulative person immediately. I need to see a pattern of behavior to see that they're resorting to manipulation to get something from me, and I don't always know what. It takes time for a pattern to emerge, and that's why I hold back about disclosing to people until I've had time to watch for a pattern of manipulative, deceptive behavior. I have to feel sure I can trust them with personal information about me. I once heard someone in psychology say that patterns are the most reliable path to a person's mind, to who they really are. I think there's truth in that. And also, as was said above, context and subtext count.
Hi Sharon,
This is a tough one for NTs also – although I know that people on the autistic spectrum can be more vulnerable to the manipulations of others. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “scandals” but I think I take your meaning – let me know if I’m off the mark, though.
I’d like to say that NTs can also fall prey to manipulators. It can be difficult for anyone, either on the spectrum or not, to be able to tell initially, as you say, whether or not someone is a manipulator. I think your inclination to give people the benefit of the doubt is a wonderful quality and it’s always unfortunate, at the very least (as well as exhausting as you said, upsetting, confusing, etc.) when someone exploits that quality in you and in others.
That said, I do believe it can be easier for NTs to scrutinize people in a different way by observing their body language, expressions, reading “between the lines” etc. However I believe that some things I hear some people on the spectrum talk about – and this has come up in this forum – are the abilities to remember exact conversations and detect contradiction. These are qualities and skills that can be very useful in identifying a manipulator. I’d like to acknowledge though, that it isn’t that simple – for example, people have talked about friends they have who contradict themselves during arguments and debates but are still friends.
There are a couple things that may be helpful. One is to take things slow when meeting a new person. Take your time getting to know that person, and to let them know you. I don’t mean to say you shouldn’t trust anyone. What I mean is take time to let the relationship unfold and to reveal more personal things about yourself. If you go slow, a manipulator may become impatient and move on. Pay attention to whether or not you are getting as much specific (as opposed to very general or vague) information from the person as you are giving. Taking it slow can also give you time to try and understand that person’s intention – what does it seem, if anything, that the person wants from you?
Another is to run your concerns or thoughts by a person or people you trust. I do understand that a lot of people out there on the spectrum don’t always have such a trusted person in their lives. This site and other websites like it may be a good place for someone on the spectrum to do post about certain situations and people and get feedback and advice.
As far as giving the benefit of the doubt to someone in a leadership role, I think this is something that people both on and off the spectrum have in common. People in leadership roles are supposed to be experts, able to be trusted, people we look up to and respect, and as many of us have found out, this is not the case in many instances. Leaders can and do use their roles to exploit, abuse and otherwise harm others. It’s also important to remember that many leaders do NOT act in this way. Which leads back to your initial point – how do you tell?
One other suggestion I have is to talk to others who may know this person – find out how the other people know the possible manipulator and what they know about him/her. Look the person up online and see what, if anything, is said.
The best thing you can ever do, in my opinion, is to trust yourself, trust your gut. If you are feeling any discomfort, or whatever mental/physicals signs point out that “something” is wrong – even if you can’t pinpoint exactly what it is in the moment, then trust it. Take yourself out of the situation, the conversation, as soon as you can. You can “look” at it later, talk to someone, post it online – take the time to think about it at a different time.
I do know that this is also part of the question – how do I know when to trust myself? My answer to this is, in all likelihood, “you will know.” You know yourself better than anyone; you have numerous experiences and relationships that you can draw on for information. Yes you may be “wrong” sometimes – particularly if you run into someone who is practiced at the art of manipulation, but keep in mind that we as humans all do make mistakes at times. Forgive yourself and try to move on. Keep in mind that you will learn from your “mistakes” and experiences and this information will help you as you encounter new people.
Karen